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  #121  
Old 14th October 2022, 11:46
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hi Steve,
So, the 00702626 Genshagen built DB 605 AS-0 comes out as built in mid October 1943. This would seem quite reasonable for an important prototype test flying in mid December 1943, as shown in the official performance report.
My own information shows that DB had been testing prototypes of the DB 605 engines with the large DB 603 supercharger for over a year.
So, this important test flight was probably one of the first of the large supercharger Bf 109 types. The results were very favourable and obviously production of the AS and D powered 109's was encouraged.

SM
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  #122  
Old 19th October 2022, 11:37
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hi everyone

Two more definite DB 605 A engine numbers from crashed parts, both from Genshagen 8-digit (007) production, and damaged from crashes in Germany. No other details, unfortunately.
First is a 25 tooth supercharger drive gear from engine 00704207.
The second is a waterpump, (edit, number corrected) 00707279.

Cheers

SM

Last edited by schwarze-man; 19th October 2022 at 17:50. Reason: number corrected.
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  #123  
Old 19th October 2022, 17:07
S Sheflin S Sheflin is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Thanks SM. These are two new ones for me.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin
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  #124  
Old 19th October 2022, 17:51
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S Sheflin View Post
Thanks SM. These are two new ones for me.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin
Thank you Steve. Sorry, I had to correct the coolant pump number, my bad!

SM
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  #125  
Old 20th October 2022, 19:56
Tomislav Haramincic's Avatar
Tomislav Haramincic Tomislav Haramincic is online now
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanzebau View Post
regarding Reggiane aircraft, so far the following DB605/Fiat RA1050 engines were identified, according to Ali d'Italia nr. 16 and Regia Aeronautica papers:


Aircraft M.M. - Engine M.M.'s
494 - 7738, 47907, 47993
092343 - 47881/001
092345 - RA 47968
092346 - 47958/078, 48014 (or 48018)
092348 - RA 47964
092354 - 48028 (or 48208)
092358 - 48115/235
096102 - 48153/273
It looks to me that when the engine number was written as "47881/001", the 47881 is the actual DB605 engine number and the 001 would be the assembly number (in this case, 001- the first DB605 assembled by Fiat).

47958/078
48115/235
48153/273
fits perfectly this increasing (chronological) sequence, 48153 being the 273rd DB605 by Fiat.

There are similar examples of such marking in the AS production.
00707733/819 AS0
00709343/1437 AS0
etc., where the number after the slash was also the assembly number of the rebuild AS, but it was not in sequence with the original engine number.

BTW, does anyone have any recorded AS engine numbers that do not start with 007xxxxx, or is it possible that for some reason only Genshagen produced engines were used for the production of AS engines (rebuilds)?

Last edited by Tomislav Haramincic; 21st October 2022 at 13:49.
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  #126  
Old 21st October 2022, 09:30
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Very nice post Tomislav,

Yes, I agree that I see some of these / numbers that align with serial numbers, as running totals.
Unfortunately, I do not have sufficient database to say much more about the AS numbers or production detail but, the AS engine info I gave earlier would definitely seem to have been new build with correlation of the build date with the engine Nr and the prototype test. That engine was DB 605 AS-0 00702626.
As an aside, I hope to be doing some archive research next year that will definitely include attempts to find more info on this.

Cheers

Chris
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  #127  
Old 21st October 2022, 11:24
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwarze-man View Post
Hi Steve,
So, the 00702626 Genshagen built DB 605 AS-0 comes out as built in mid October 1943. This would seem quite reasonable for an important prototype test flying in mid December 1943, as shown in the official performance report.
My own information shows that DB had been testing prototypes of the DB 605 engines with the large DB 603 supercharger for over a year.
So, this important test flight was probably one of the first of the large supercharger Bf 109 types. The results were very favourable and obviously production of the AS and D powered 109's was encouraged.

SM
Just a note for those interested in this, I see that the Daimler-Benz Einbaumappe, or installation data and details, was issued dated 14.2.44.
However, there are several pages in the document that are re-issues from the previous DB 605 AS dated 15.10.43. As it happens, very close to the production date of the engine listed above. I believe this just reflects the period when various decisions to go forward with the engine occurred.
There had been background engine (605 with 603 supercharger) prototype development for over a year before this 15.10.43 .
Another point is, that Daimler-Benz technical documentation does seem to fall behind the progress of engine development after Autumn '43.

Cheers

SM
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  #128  
Old 21st October 2022, 21:14
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomislav Haramincic View Post

There are similar examples of such marking in the AS production.
00707733/819 AS0
00709343/1437 AS0
etc., where the number after the slash was also the assembly number of the rebuild AS, but it was not in sequence with the original engine number.

BTW, does anyone have any recorded AS engine numbers that do not start with 007xxxxx, or is it possible that for some reason only Genshagen produced engines were used for the production of AS engines (rebuilds)?
Hi again Tomislav,
Going back into the production data/dates of DB 605 AS engines that you list, I estimate that 00707733/819 was built in the first week of June '44 and was the 819th production AS engine. At this point, the MW50 system was just being introduced.
Next, 00709343/1437 would have been built at the end of July '44 as the 1,437th production AS engine.
Now, this would appear to make approx 600 AS engines built out of 1,900 DB 605's built at Genshagen in the period, Jun+Jul '44, about 30% share of Genshagen 605 production in those two months .
If you remember the Dec '43 flight test engine 00702626 I mentioned, that was built mid Oct '43. The production till DB 605 AS0 00707733/819 was 5,107 engines, giving about 15% to AS production.
So, over this whole period, if production was steady, the rate of Genshagen DB 605 AS construction was about 20% of total Genshagen 605 production. To me, this would seem likely to fit with a separate production shop/line producing about 5 DB 605 AS engines per day, 7 days a week, out of the total average of 25 DB 605 engines a day for the whole period covered here, ie mid Oct '43 to end Jul '44, or just about 8.5 months.
But, reviewing the way it works out, I suspect that the production of the AS was at a lower rate from October '43 until maybe late spring '44 when it was increased, giving the changing percentage output.
Well, however the work was organised, it was a considerable production.
Additionally, other data for Messerschmitt Regensburg aircraft production lists 325 Bf 109 G-6AS and 1,373 G14-AS built between Jan '44 to Dec '44.

SM

Last edited by schwarze-man; 22nd October 2022 at 11:53. Reason: dates corrected. changing production rate added.
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  #129  
Old 22nd October 2022, 11:42
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hi Chris,
You did an amazing effort cross-referencing all this engine production data and sharing the results with all us here. Really a great job!

I have a few more Genshagen produced AS engines with the assembly number sufix that might help you,

00705160/106 installed on Bf109 G-6/AS WNr.163422
00704581/346 installed on Bf109 G-6/AS WNr.163795
00708525/1206 ASM
0070952x/1548 AS-0
00709538/1572 installed on Bf109 G-14/AS WNr.780887
00709767/1720 AS-0

Looking at the first two engines I mentioned, the second engine has a lower engine number than the first one and a higher assembly number. This could indicate that the first AS engines were "returns" from various units or repair facilities which were then upgraded to AS standard. Later assembly number are in line with the engine numbers, so it's possible that the later AS engines were taken already at the production line and finished as AS engines. I have too little data to make this a solid claim, but I think it's worth taking this thought into account.

Regarding the Fiat production - I found another engine
48771/891 installed on Bf109 G-8 WNr.200435

cheers,
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  #130  
Old 22nd October 2022, 13:56
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomislav Haramincic View Post
Hi Chris,
You did an amazing effort cross-referencing all this engine production data and sharing the results with all us here. Really a great job!

I have a few more Genshagen produced AS engines with the assembly number sufix that might help you,

00705160/106 installed on Bf109 G-6/AS WNr.163422
00704581/346 installed on Bf109 G-6/AS WNr.163795
00708525/1206 ASM
0070952x/1548 AS-0
00709538/1572 installed on Bf109 G-14/AS WNr.780887
00709767/1720 AS-0

Looking at the first two engines I mentioned, the second engine has a lower engine number than the first one and a higher assembly number. This could indicate that the first AS engines were "returns" from various units or repair facilities which were then upgraded to AS standard. Later assembly number are in line with the engine numbers, so it's possible that the later AS engines were taken already at the production line and finished as AS engines. I have too little data to make this a solid claim, but I think it's worth taking this thought into account.

Regarding the Fiat production - I found another engine
48771/891 installed on Bf109 G-8 WNr.200435

cheers,
Thank you Tomislav,

I had thought that I might not be able to make much of the 605AS production history but, it seems to be opening-up slowly!
Thank you so much for the latest details , I have very few details of AS production and only one engine with the extra production numbers after the 8-digit serial before your info. Strange how those production numbers are found. Now, my present theory is that these engines are all Genshagen new-build engines. The out-of numerical sequence of some engines with additional numbers is possibly due to an engine on production not reaching completion due to some shortcoming or problem such as damage (possibly from air-raids as well). The basic 8-digit 605 number would be generated right at the initial work on an engine but, I imagine the /???? AS production number was added as the basic 605A engine was completed as an AS. I can imagine the basic engines coming off the 605A line to have 605AS rear gearcase and the large supercharger fitted.
I don't see them building complete 605A engines and then modifying them to AS, nor do I imagine they built them on the same line with some of each. Also, I don't see them having a total 605AS build line. But I don't have confirmation, yet!
So, now that I have these extra numbers, I will build a chart of engines against production dates etc to see the patterns. There will be surprises but, it will be better than no idea, as we had before.
BTW, the BIOS production data that I have is only for "605" engines, no sub-variant id, no A/B/AS or D etc !. This makes it very difficult, but I hope to get better info in future!

Cheers

Chris

PS. I do realise that rebuilt engines would occur and that rebuild of 605A as 605AS would be possible. I just don't expect that would have happened as a plan until after summer '44. Again, maybe better info will come along!
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