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  #151  
Old 7th November 2022, 09:36
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hi Everyone,

Well, I have just been amazed to find some references to airframe and engine (Zelle und Motoren) lives in RLM documents!
Matti, this information is relavant to your words on life extensions.
I am trying to get a good interpretation of the info and will cover it soon.

Cheers

SM
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  #152  
Old 8th November 2022, 19:37
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hi folks, another two from 1943:
Bf 109G4 WNr 16204 with DB 605 A-1 engine WNr 78 644
Bf 109 WNr 16266 with DB 605 A-1 engine WNr 007/01188



Cheers!
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  #153  
Old 15th November 2022, 13:05
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hi Everyone,

I am posting some information here that is very generously available by member Charles Bavarois. You can view the five pages of RLM orders about aircraft and engine lives on his member page, in his album.
Thank you Charles!
The pages are documents from 1942 and there is a single page 257/42 that describes the administration of the declared life and the extension policy.
This is supported by four page document 487/42 that usefully lists the approved life of aircraft and engines. It is interesting that the later document in late '42 did not include original figures for the DB 605 A/B/C, these have been added as amendments. Also, the DB 605 amendments obviously cover very early engine build standards, with specific references to fuel injection timing and "old-type" pistons, with engine life varying between 50, 75 and 100 hours.
The documents should be read with careful understanding of the Partial and Full overhaul definitions, Teilüberholung and Grundüberholung.
As I have described earlier, the work for the engine servicing is listed in the engine handbook, the overhaul work is listed in the Instandsetzungsvorscriften and the details are further covered in the Reparatur Anleitung DB 605 A-B.
I have translated some of the guidance about engine life from the document 257/42, and this is it:

"Teilüberholungszeiten können im normalen Betreib für Zelle und Motor bis zu 20% überschritten Werden. Für die aufgeführten Flugmotorenmuster können unter Berücksichtigung der Betreibsickerheit und wenn der Einsatz es erfordert, die Richtwerte jeder Teilüberholung bis zu 50 v. H. überschritten werden.
Die Grundüberholungszeit, z B, bie BMW 132 A Richwert = 200/3 kann im Höchstfalle (200 + 50 v. H.) x 3 = 900 Stunden erreichen.
Ist die Summe der jeweils errichten TEILÜBERHOLNSZEITEN kleiner als der untere Richtwerte der Grundüberholungszeit, (BMW132A 200 x 3 = 600 stunden ) so kann wenn es der Motorbefund gestattet, ein weiterer Teilüberholungsabschnitt angehängt werden."
Translated:
"Partial overhaul times can be exceeded by up to 20% in normal operation for the cell and engine. For the aircraft engine types listed, the guide values of each partial overhaul may be exceeded by up to 50 %, taking into account the operating inertia and where the use so requires.
The basic overhaul time, e.g. with BMW 132 A benchmark = 200/3, can reach a maximum of (200 + 50 %) x 3 = 900 hours.
If the sum of the respective established PARTIAL OVERHAUL TIMES is less than the lower guideline values of the basic overhaul time, (BMW132A 200 x 3 = 600 hours), a further partial overhaul section can be added if the engine findings allow."

Now, the precise application of these orders seems complicated. Also, the later orders for the DB 605 life and overhaul will likely have been revised in later RLM orders. However, this is great information and I must thank Charles Bavarois again for putting this information on his album.

Cheers

SM

Last edited by schwarze-man; 16th November 2022 at 15:05.
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  #154  
Old 11th March 2023, 13:30
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hi Everyone!

I am pleased to say that I have made further analysis of the early 5 digit DB 601 and DB 605 engine serial numbers. My details in reply #70 can change a little in that the blocks of engine numbers for the DB 601 A, the DB 601 N and the DB 601 E/F can be better grouped. The allocation of production plants is made by my correlation to production figures by date from the records and the excellent assessments by Tomislav. There are a few unusual engine serial numbers to be found in the data but these amount to only about 1% of the sample and are obvious errors or numbers that bear little relation to the overall data.
As I have previously noted, I have found difficulty with the total range of possible numbers in the 5 digit blocks, which far exceeds the engine production. This obviously implies that not all numbers were used, and presumably many block numbers were partly unused. So to give some help I am listing the blocks that are in the data.
Further difficulty arises with the DB 601 N engine that is not always annotated in the data. I have listed the blocks where this type is known but some will be in the DB 601 A blocks. The DB 601 E engines are quite easily identified with the Bf 109 F-3/4 and these are listed, although the sample numbers are small.


DB 601 A.

Marienfeld, Werk 90.
10xxx, 11xxx.

NIMO, Brunswick.
20xxx, 21xxx, 22xxx.

Henschel, Kassel.
30xxx, 31xxx.

Genshagen.
60xxx, 61xxx, 62xxx, 63xxx, 64xxx, 65xxx, 66xxx.


Known DB 601 N in Blocks.

NIMO, Brunswick.
21xxx, 22xxx.

Henschel, Kassel.
32xxx.

Genshagen.
66xxx, 67xxx.


DB 601 E.

Possibly Marienfeld, Werk 90.
14xxx.

NIMO, Brunswick.
24xxx, 25xxx.

Henschel, Kassel.
34xxx.

Genshagen.
68xxx, 69xxx, 70xxx, 71xxx.

The next post by me will carry-on with the 5 digit DB 605 A/B blocks.
Cheers

SM

Last edited by schwarze-man; 12th March 2023 at 10:01. Reason: Layout
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  #155  
Old 11th March 2023, 16:14
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

With the introduction into production of the DB 605 A/B engines in the spring of 1942, the 5 digit serial number system continued in use, effectively picking-up the numbering, although it is unclear quite how tightly the number sequence was maintained in the changeover of engine type. As described in my post #107, the 5-digit numbering continued for about one year, until the new 8-digit serial numbering was introduced in early 1943. In this first year of DB 605 production, approximately 11,000 DB 605 A/B engines were produced. The range of serial number blocks is around about 20,000 numbers available where there is evidence of numbers being used in any block of 1,000. Additionally, the main blocks with no engines listed total about another 33,000 unused numbers and are; 42xxx-49xxx, 52xxx-59xxx, 82xxx-89xxx and 91xxx-99xxx. Some of these gaps can be presumed to align with planned production and plants that failed to reach expectations or simple pre-planned number allocations for other possible production, as it is known that several other engine plants had their planned production types changed. The overall situation with these 5-digit engine numbers in this period is, that about 11,000 DB 605 A/B engines were built and numbered in about 20 known to be used number blocks and another 33 number blocks were not used at all.
For completeness here, I will mention that the early DB 601 numbers 12xxx, 13xxx and 15xxx-19xxx also have very few or no representation (in the data that I have).
The DB 605 high numbers blocks 50xxx and 100xxx are represented in reasonable numbers with losses in 1943, but I am unable to identify the production plant(s).


DB 605 A/B. Known production blocks with 5 Digit numbers. All, 1942 to early 1943 Production DB 605.

NIMO, Brunswick.
25xxx, 26xxx, 27xxx, 28xxx.

Henschel, Kassel.
35xxx, 36xxx, 37xxx.

Weiss, Budapest.
40xxx, 41xxx.

Not Known.
50xxx.

Genshagen.
73xxx, 76xxx, 77xxx, 78xxx, 79xxx, 80xxx, 81xxx.

Steyr-Daimler-Puch.
90xxx.

Not Known.
100xxx. This is an unusual 6 digit block but has representation.

Overall, these various posts cover the available data that I have. The pattern and details of the serial number allocations are clear to any researcher. There are some unknowns and a very few strange numbers in the data but, the information given is as accurate as I can make it.
I apologise for the information being presented in different sessions. However, the whole picture can be found by carefully reading the different entries. I hope that this information will help anyone wishing to study this subject in future.

Cheers for now,

Chris Starr (SM)

Last edited by schwarze-man; 18th March 2023 at 12:50. Reason: List S-D-P with 90xxx. Layout
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  #156  
Old 11th March 2023, 20:53
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hi again,
I thought that I might thank all who post information in these pages. Please keep posting!
The most serious contribution was from Matti Salonen who posted an 800 or-so aircraft-loss database. That contribution was critical to me being able to make the basic analysis, with meaningful numbers. So, Great thanks Matti!
Matti has also been a great help with DB 605 AS information. Double thanks!
Tomislav Haramincic gave great information in post #78 and his later details of DB 605 AS production was very helpful. Thanks Tomislav!
All contributions have been very helpful and between us, I think this is a great compilation!
I am aware that there are still question marks about some other production at other plants and in other countries. This includes plants that are listed as DB aero engine and parts producers but not listed for assembling the DB 605. Some other countries that built the DB 605 had liability for providing engines back to Germany. The plants not fully attributed include FIAT in Turin, Avia in Prague, Ostmark in Vienna, Pommersche in Stettin, Weiss in Budapest and plants in Sweden.
The production statistics that I use are from the British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee (BIOS) Report Number 35 from original data at the Daimler-Benz Headquarters in Stuttgart. This information has excellent breakdown of production by plant and in monthly figures. However, there is no breakdown of engine sub-types within the main types so, all 601 are just 601, and all 605 are just 605. This makes some detective work difficult but, there is valuable information in the text as well.
I am still working on late DB 605 developments and this work on engine serial numbers and production has helped with that. I hope to produce more detail on late engine production in the future.
So, Thanks again for all contributions so far!

Cheers

SM
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  #157  
Old 14th March 2023, 21:25
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

An interesting query about the identity of the first Bf 109E in Italian markings, where only the engine's constr. number is known: 11706.
Here is a link to a Facebook page, hopefully it works: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid...92660284098794
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  #158  
Old 21st March 2023, 09:44
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ouidjat ouidjat is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hi Gents
What subtype of DB 605 is it?
DB 605?/# 1014007/8335
Thanks
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  #159  
Old 21st March 2023, 20:07
S Sheflin S Sheflin is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hello ouidjat,
Unless I am mistaken, this is DBM-Genshagen-built DB 605 AS, MNr. 007/8335 with 1014 being its AS rebuild number. It was documented on Bf 109 G-6/R2/AS, WNr. 163447.
I have numerous other DB 605 AS engines that have the same format: ZZZXXX/XXXX, where the leading Zs are the AS rebuild numbers, and the XXX/XXXX portion is the actual Motornummer.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin
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  #160  
Old 21st March 2023, 21:43
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ouidjat ouidjat is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S Sheflin View Post
Hello ouidjat,
Unless I am mistaken, this is DBM-Genshagen-built DB 605 AS, MNr. 007/8335 with 1014 being its AS rebuild number. It was documented on Bf 109 G-6/R2/AS, WNr. 163447.
I have numerous other DB 605 AS engines that have the same format: ZZZXXX/XXXX, where the leading Zs are the AS rebuild numbers, and the XXX/XXXX portion is the actual Motornummer.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

Hi Steve,
in the mean time, our friend Nick Beale told me it was an ASM.
Since we are talking about 163447, report AI2(G) serial 253 says it was found at Beauvais-Nivillers (incorrectly written Beauvais-Nivelles). Just 2,5km of taxiway from Tillé.

Best regards,
Franck.
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