Heinkel 111 casualty 19.9.43 9/KG4.

[steve sheridan]

Hi does anybody have loss report for 9/KG4 19.9.43. He111 5J+ET hit by flak circa 07.20 - 08.36hrs.Ret to land at Smolensk.

Obgefr. Herbert Goller and Fw.Heinrich Schwatter wounded.

Any help would be appreciated.
Steve.

[Matti Salonen]

Although the GQM says Jägerbeschuß, the NVM gives "Baumberührung nach Start infolge Schlechtwetter. Bruch < 10 %." Also the code seems to be 5J+CT and WNr. 7040 (He 111 H-6). Location Jelnja.

Matti

[Stig Jarlevik]

Matti

Is there a possibillity two aircraft were involved in mishaps this day?
I notice (in another request by Steve) you did not recognize the name Heinrich Schwatter, so what does NVM say regarding the crew of WNr 7040?

Cheers
Stig

[steve sheridan]

Many thanks for the information Matti.
The source of the lead is from Schwatter's flugbuch which gives a/c code as 5J=ET and Flaktreffer as the cause.

[steve sheridan]

Hi Matti, the main source of the casualties comes from Karl Gunderlach's Kampfgeschwader 4" General Wever" book. Both wounded.
Schwatter relates in his flugbuch as either himself or Goller was wounded in the head.

Interesting proposal Stig, perhaps two a/c damaged.
Best regs,
Steve.

[Matti Salonen]

It is probable that there were two aircraft. The NVM has not Schwatter (Schwätter?) but only Goller as follows:

1943-09-19, 9./KG 4, He 111 H-6, 7040, 5J+CT, Jelnja
Bordschütze Ogfr Goller, Herbert, verletzt
Baumberührung nach Start infolge Schlechtwetter. Bruch < 10 %.

Matti

[Jim P.]

There's also this loss for 9./KG 4 for 19-Sep-43. This one seems to match the situation, but not the name.

He 111H-, , n.n., , III., 9., KG 4, , , , , 19-Sep-43, Hit obstruction. Bs WIA., , Lfl.6/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #12)-Vol.23, , Jelnja, <10%, H, Bs Ogefr. Erich Unterdörfel, ,

[Matti Salonen]

From the NVM I have:

1943-09-17, 7./KG 4, He 111 H-16, 161357, 5J+IR, Bei Jelnja
Bordschütze Ogfr Unterdörfel, Erich,
Jägerbeschuß. Bruch ? %.

GQM gives this 1943-09-19, 9./KG 4. Don't know, why there is such discrepancy between NVM and GQM data.

Matti

[Stig Jarlevik]

Very interesting reading

Thanks Jim (and Matti of course) for bringing up the second machine supposedly damaged that day.

It feels like we have a Russian strafing attack on Jelnja in the morning of the 19th (GQM), with two aircraft being hit, and one which also manage to take off, hitting some trees while doing so. Perhaps even a third aircraft was involved somewhere (Steve's 5J+ET)?

Can this be verified, or is NVM right and we are talking about two dates, 17th and 19th?

Cheers
Stig

[steve sheridan]

Thanks guys, appears ive opened up a can of worms with these!

Kindest regs,
Steve.