"22.06.41, combat actions of Soviet Bombers" - article of M.Timin

[Evgeny Velichko]

which confirmes Soviet agressive/invasion plans

It confirmes only a defend plans if germans will attack. Without any speculations

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Of course in Soviet terminolgy defence means an attack, similar meaning : training which means mobilisation (bolszyje uczebnyje soboty = secret mobilisation in military terminology). So duble-speak is common in this time.

There are evident orders in "covers" plans orders to attack enemy side, and it was done very early by bomber force, soon rapidly stopted by the orders from Moscow, and again soon later were given normal order to again make normal attack on the enemy on full scale.

Of course author does not speculate about this, but it is evident from his text, begining on the first page - reading the "covers" plans, which were later put into "red envelopes".

Regards,
mirekw

[Evgeny Velichko]

Mirek:

There were two different things:

-"Plans to Cover the Mobilization in case of German Agression". It contained air cover of mobilisation of troops, and attack of advancing enemy (german) army to stop or slow them before "war time army" (mobilisated) will arrive to border.

-There are no even a trace in each and every russian archives about any "plans of agression", which is highly speculated by "historians" like Rezun/Suvorov or M.Solonin and their adepts. You can create and argue ANY variant of "plans of agression" of USSR, but You cant provide plain proof - "plan" itself. In this case, You can call "Plan of Cover of Mobilisation" as You wish and speculate about it as You wish - but it will not change the fact that it was defensive plan. USSR in summer 1941 was VERY FAR not ready to any serious war, especially against 3rd Reich.

[Andrey Dikov]

Mirek, I also congratulate you with November 7, prosit!

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Evegnienij, probalny you also against fact given in such solid and archie data book, which was written by "total" Russian historian, very far fram Rezun, living If I am right just in Moscow, like Mieltiuchow and his "Uposzczonnyj szans Stalina", edited in Russian about 3-times up to 2010.

Ok, it is up tu you, but this simply agains true and Mieltiuchov very deep resarches done in Russia archives, not from the books like Rezun light "resarches".
Maybe you do not read in Russia and do know this book, you should begin read it, pity you do not know about it.

Probably you do ever heard about Mieltiuchov, so it is pointless to futher have discution about this topic.

Andrey, I do not undrestand you, but the Noveber the 7th has passed away several years ago. Just now it is anniversary of November the 4th in Russia, by parraler it is aslo the anniversary of huge pruge done on citisens of the right side of Warsaw in 1794. Exactly on this holly for Russian day Russian soldiers pf general A. Suvorov had kiled about 7.000-20.000 innocnet civilans. Just "very funy" indeed anniversary invented by presidnet Putin, instead of November the 7th, if I am right several years ago.

Good luck, :-)
MirekW

BTW, I do not know, so far, that Mieltiuchov was or is any adept of Resun or Sołonin books. Strange but maybe I am wrong?

[Evgeny Velichko]

Mirek - its a pity I havent read that book. I will look on.

P.S. (Offtopic): 4th November is not "funny" anniversary for russians - we celebrate not 1794 but 1612:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_Day_(Russia)

It was a state holiday from 1649 to 1917, and from 2005 till now.

If there were no such men like Minin and Pozharsky in 1612, probably Polish Empire would had eastern shore with Pacific Ocean at this time.

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Evgeny, it was Mieltiuchov also resarches (very deeply on Russian state's archives), which presnet proposed day for Stalin invasion on Germany, written by hands by gen Vatutin, on document from 11 March 1941 as on 12.06.1941 (If correct remeber), no Rezun, no Sołonin and etc.

Not only M. Mieltiuchov (I have his book from 2002), but also second very good, as for me, Russian historian W. Niewieżyn also had written about such plans and given the first planned day for Stalin invason as on 12.06.41. His article was edited more then 12 years ago. Such date was of course posponed, for example due to R. Hess flight to Scotland in May 1941 and possibility of make peace between Hitler and Churchill.

Mieltiuchov estimate, that such Russian/Stalin invasion could began in the first part of July 1941. Second planed date could be set by Stalin between 10-15 VII 41. Planned finnishing Soviet military concetration was set as 10.07.41 - this is Mieltiuchov information.

As you know, or not, Resun had set such date on 6.07.41, but he is very funy with his books, nice reading and very big lought, due to many errors in his texts.

If you have any solid facts and evidences against M. Miletiuchov and W. Niwieżyn materials, you may/should write and show them.

Pruge/slaugther, done by Russian soldiers gen. Alexandr Suvorov on inncnet civilians of Warsaw Prage exactly on 4 November 1794, you may write about it in Polish:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obrona_Pragi

"According to one Russian estimate 20,000 people had been killed in the space of a few hours" (Adam Zamoyski: The Last King of Poland, London, 1992 p. 429). Losses should be less then 20000 but minimal was about 7000, but it was also high.

It was political decision to put something important for Russians in November instead 7th. BTW, it was "Lenin or Breżniew birthsday?" or something similar, like "Czernienko's or Andropov's birthsday" too.
Of course it is joke, it was birthsday of Big October and Big Revolution of 1917 etc.).

Russian administration had began to celebrate 4th November - strictly political reason.
"Funy" but this date has two Russians' "big" military success.

Regards
mirekw

[John Beaman]

OK guys, the thread is about the air magazine "Aviapark", 2/2010, publishing a new article of Mikhail Timin, "22.06.41, combat actions of Soviet Bombers".

It was not an opening for discussions on other subjects. Keep on subject or I will close the thread.

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Some qution to M. Timim, about his article, if you can Evgenyj please ask him about this below.

Reading this text I have seen, that there are ommited two separate air units.
First this is: 46. OAE of Pinska Flottyla, which based on the same airfield as 39. SBAP (8 km before Pinsk, Zabczyce or so). This unit had 22 planes including 16 Neman R-10 on 21.06. During morning attack it was almost destroyed on the ground, as some SBs from 39. SBAP (this information about destruction of 39 SBAP bombers are given and nothing more?).

Second
Near Grodno, on Karolin airfiled, had based 10. OAE PW NKWD, which had about 13 Neman R-10.

I wonder, why thiese units were ommited, maybe there will be some about them in second part? If I am right such units were during the war subordiated to VVS RKKA air command (or should be). Neman could be used as a light bomber, and this plane had done such flights too (could carry 300 kg bombs).
I wonder too, which were both status in Wester Front air command, they were not ommited in Soviet war preparation (plans in red envelopes/ covers plans). It was impossible on this level, both were strong independed units of light reccon-bombers.

These planes are missing from his article about bomber, very strange, why?

Second.
I wonder if M. Timin is going to write about afternoon attack deeper in "Polish" territory, If right rember one of lang distance bober unit 97. or 96. DBAP of 3. AK RGK (?) had attack targets near Warsaw in Legionowo on 22.06.? So about it will be also written in second part (maybe he will write too about 212. ODBAP attack on Warsaw on 23.06.41?)? Would be interested too such long distance mission.

Regards,
mirekw

[Nokose]

I just finished going through this article (found it on line). It covers the Soviet bomber aviation of the North-West and West Fronts for the first part of the day. It's not about the bomber units getting destroyed on the airfields. It's more about the bomber strikes that were made after the attack. I found out alot of information on their make up before the attack and table on the airfields used. Finding the names of the towns and villages outside of the Russian name for them has been a little difficult. I ended up with 19 pages of translation. It would probably be better to print both parts in a book form rather then a magazine.It doesn't have a lot of first person "fillers" on what happen. In WWW.allaces.ru there is a description of the 130 SBAP's attack which on looking close you can eliminate any claims by 1./JG53. I don't know if Osprey would be a good publisher for it but they seem to assembly line out books. The first part was good and I wait for the second now.