JG information needed

[joebraggs]

Hello everyone

I am trying to track down information regarding a specific staffel that was flying toward the Brest Penninsula at approximately 2035h on July 13,1944. Twelve Fw 190's were engaged near L'Aigle by 12 RCAF 441 Sqdn. Spitifre IX's with the Fw's losing 10 aircraft and 1 damaged, while the Canadians did not suffer a loss.

I am seeking any information re: this staffel, websites, addresses or people to contact who may further my research. Any information would be gratefully accepted.

Thank you for any help you can provide.

Joe

[John Beaman]

Hi Joe:

I moved your thread to here as it seemed more suited.

Your Fws may have been from III./JG 2. They had 12 machines active in the area and made one claim at 2030 hours. They lost 2, Uffz Kolmanitsch safe, Ofhr von Richtofen KIA.

[Franek Grabowski]

John
Kolmanitsch was apparently from another combat, being a Me 109 pilot from II/JG2. Anyway, even if there were some more losses, that are unrecorded in known papers, it still looks Canucks did some serious overclaim. Of course, I would be happy to be proven otherwise.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, guys.

According to the Summarische Verlustemeldungen for this date, the following losses were sustained by elements of JG 2:

Stab:
None

I. Gruppe:
None

II. Gruppe:
1 aircraft category 4 "Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy"
1 aircraft category 21 "Damaged without enemy action on operational flight"

No pilots were killed but a pilot of non-officer rank was wounded in the category 21 accident, (this probably then not being Uffz Kolmanitsch, as John Beaman indicates he was not wounded, and would robably be the pilot of the category 4 aircraft)

III. Gruppe:
5 aircraft category 4 "Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy"
1 aircraft category 20 "Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight"

One pilot of non-officer rank was killed in one of the category 4 losses, this then probably being Ofhr von Richthofen.

Destroyed does not necessary mean a total destruction of pilot AND aircraft, but rather a loss percentage of above 50%, and the term damaged thus implies a loss of less than or equal to 50%.

So - if no other sources are available, we will probably get further information on only two of theses losses, one of the III. Gruppe category 4 losses and the category 21 II. Gruppe loss.

Seems the canadians only overclaimed by about 100% this day, I guess that is not too bad for a rather large furball.

Regards,
Andreas

[vzlion]

Hi Andreas,

A little bit off the subject, but could you please explain the damaged/destroyed
catagories you used. I haven't seen any like them before. Thanks,

Walt

[jmallard]

Hello every body

In the Jean-Bernard Frappé book "La luftwaffe face au débarquement allié" we have for july 13th a luftwaffe claim at 2035 Ofw Munsche III./JG2, a spitfire near Vimoutiers and for the luftwaffe losses for this day :

A fw 190 from the II./JG1
A Bf 109 G6 "9 white" wrkn 163831 Uffz Kurt Senger (KIA) 7./JG1 near West of Epaignes
A bf 109 G6 wrkn 165865 Uffz Erwin Kolmantisch (injuried) 5./JG2 Montlognon
A Fw 190 A8 wrkn 730909 Ofhr Ruthart Von Richtofen (KIA) 10./JG2 South East Argentan
A bf 109 G6/U4/AS "6 white" wrkn 441161 Lt Dieter Sachse (injuried) 1./JG5 near Caen
A Fw 190 A6 "15 blue" wrkn 530923 (or 730923) Uffz Hermann grad (injuried) 4./JG26 Bernay
A Fw 190 A8 "7 blue" wrkn 170313 (or 170319) Ogfr Helmut Merten (KIA) 4./JG26 WSW Bernay

Friendly

Originally Posted by John Beaman

Hi Joe:

I moved your thread to here as it seemed more suited.

Your Fws may have been from III./JG 2. They had 12 machines active in the area and made one claim at 2030 hours. They lost 2, Uffz Kolmanitsch safe, Ofhr von Richtofen KIA.

[Andreas Brekken]

Originally Posted by vzlion

Hi Andreas,

A little bit off the subject, but could you please explain the damaged/destroyed
catagories you used. I haven't seen any like them before. Thanks,

Walt

Hi.

The Summarische Verlustemeldungen were reports made out that summarized the losses for a given unit in a spreadsheet-like report. These consisted of two types of sheets, one for the aircraft losses, and one for the personnel losses. Please see the images below.

http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/...1 Seite 02.jpg

http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/...3 Seite 01.jpg

I have entered these in my database, and as my website has several language options, I have also translated the categories used, the original german ones shown below with the english translation:

1
durch Feindeinwirkung vermißt
Missing due to enemy action

2
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Flakbeschuß total
Destroyed by anti-aircraft artillery on operational flight

3
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Flakbeschuß beschädigt
Damaged by anti-aircraft artillery on operational flight

4
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Bordwaffenbeschuß total mit Feindbeobachtung
Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy

5
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Bordwaffenbeschuß total ohne Feindbeobachtung
Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, not observed by enemy

6
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Bordwaffenbeschuß beschädigt mit Feindbeobachtung
Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy

7
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Bordwaffenbeschuß beschädigt ohne Feindbeobachtung
Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, not observed by enemy

8
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Infanteriebeschuß total
Destroyed by gunfire from enemy infantry on operational flight

9
durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Infanteriebeschuß beschädigt
Damaged by gunfire from enemy infantry on operational flight

10
durch Feindeinwirkung auf eigenem Kriegsgebiet (Bodenverluste) durch Bombenabwurf total
Destroyed on the ground by enemy bomb

11
durch Feindeinwirkung auf eigenem Kriegsgebiet (Bodenverluste) durch Bombenabwurf
beschädigt Damaged on the ground by enemy bomb

12
durch Feindeinwirkung auf eigenem Kriegsgebiet (Bodenverluste) durch Bordwaffenbeschuß total
Destroyed on the ground by gunfire from enemy aircraft

13
durch Feindeinwirkung auf eigenem Kriegsgebiet (Bodenverluste) durch Bordwaffenbeschuß beschädigt
Damaged on the ground by gunfire from enemy aircraft

14
durch Feindeinwirkung auf eigenem Kriegsgebiet (Bodenverluste) durch Erdbeschuß
total Destroyed on the ground by enemy gunfire from ground forces

15
durch Feindeinwirkung auf eigenem Kriegsgebiet (Bodenverluste) durch Erdbeschuß beschädigt
Damaged on the ground by enemy gunfire from ground forces

16
durch Feindeinwirkung Sonstige total
Destroyed by other enemy action

17
durch Feindeinwirkung Sonstige beschädigt
Damaged by other enemy action

18
insgesamt durch Feindeinwirkung total
Total number of aircraft destroyed by enemy action

19 insgesamt durch Feindeinwirkung beschädigt
Total number of aircraft damaged by enemy action

20
ohne Feindeinwirkung mit Feindauftrag total
Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight

21
ohne Feindeinwirkung mit Feindauftrag beschädigt
Damaged without enemy action on operational flight

22
ohne Feindeinwirkung ohne Feindauftrag (Betriebsverluste) total
Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight

23
ohne Feindeinwirkung ohne Feindauftrag (Betriebsverluste) beschädigt
Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight

24
insgesamt ohne Feindeinwirkung total
Total number of aircraft destroyed without enemy action

25
insgesamt ohne Feindeinwirkung beschädigt
Total number of aircraft damaged without enemy action

I used the english translation in my previous post.

Regards,
Andreas

[Franek Grabowski]

Andreas, looks outstanding. What is the completness and coverage of those reports? Also, 50% overclaim is something about average for intense scraps.

[Andreas Brekken]

Coverage:
All units reporting to the GenQu 6 Abt under the designation Fliegende Verbände. Thus all frontline units and several others in duty at the front.

Timespan:
21.06.1941 through January 1945.

Regards,
Andreas

[RT]

Those docs are also available for april 40 campaign nd French-campaign 40,

remi