Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork

[Jochen Prien]

Dear ChrisS,

thank you for your input. I'm afraid however that your approach does not help to solve the problem as the emblems in question seen on images # 1 and 2 can be seen on a/c of 3./JG 52 in Rissia in May/June 1942 ( # 3 ) and on an a/c of 1./JG 52 in the Netherlands in mid 1941 ( # 2 ). Therefore it seems that the emblem you referred to as the "former emblem of 3./JG 52" is something rather different, albeit an unsolved issue of its own.

The problem I'm facing is that for the period between mid 1941 and summer 1942, when I./JG 52 was re-equipped with the Bf 109 G-2, there are five different emblems to be seen on the Bf 109 F-2s and F-4s, one being the Gruppe badge and another the former Gruppe badge which had become the Staffel badge of 2./JG 52 as per mid 1941, which are identified beyond reasonable doubt.

The same - to me - applies to the "shot through umbrella" emblem of 3./JG 52 which can be seen between autumn 1941 and May 1942 on at least eight Bf 109 F-2s and F-4s ( see JFV 12/II to come ).

This leaves us with two emblems which are pending a definitive allocation - the eagle without a shield we're dealing with in this thread and the eagle on a shield that you referred to.

Regards

Jochen Prien

P.S.: Thanks of course too to all the other contributors to this thread and to Larry for spending his precious time to solve my problems.

[ChrisS]

Hello Jochen

In Luftwaffe im Focus Nr19 pages 30-35 Axel Urbanke identifies this 'eagle with a clutch of roundels over waves in a shield' emblem as belonging to 3./JG 52, even illustrating a profile by Claes Sundin of Yellow 10 with the emblem. Is he then incorrect in this?

Cheers

Chris Simmonds

[Jochen Prien]

Dear ChrisS,

I have seen the article in Luftwaffe im Focus. We disagree with respect to the allocation of the emblem you mentioned but only time and future findings will tell who is right and who is wrong. Our present state of research will be presented at the end of the Appendix to Vol. 12/II.

Regards

Jochen Prien

[ChrisS]

Dear Jochen

Thank you for the reply. Axel may be wrong but the similarity between the 'concept' of the eagle carrying a clutch of roundels over a set of waves, which must have been a pain for the ground crews to paint, and the simplified eagle with only one distressed roundel, much easier for busy ground crew to apply, seems to me to have a strong resonance as both emblems have such similarity.

One of the arguments for 1./JG52 is that the two photographs in LiF 19/2012 are both of wheels-up landed JG52 Bf109-F's, one carries a '4' and the other '10' in a light colour outlined in black which would suggest 1./JG52 who used white numbers outlined black whereas 3./JG52 numbers were yellow outlined in white. I accept that this is a very strong argument however tonally both the 4 and 10 are darker than white especially when compared to the white of the adjacent balkankreuz and that the numbers are far closer in tone to the Russia rumpf/theatre band. With regard to the new emblem, one must ask why would 3./JG52 'pinch' an emblem so similar to 1./JG52 with an eagle and roundell? Could they not have been more 'original'? Then also why would 3./JG52 take a new emblem that contained the emblem of a country they fought almost a year in their past? Why not have the eagle carrying a soviet red star? No, I still believe that the previous emblem in LiF 19/2012 belongs to 3./JG52 and that the second emblem that you seek a better image of is in fact a modified variant of the earlier emblem.

But I look forward to Vol 12/11 with great anticipation!

Best Regards

Chris

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello Larry, Jochen and others,

Picture number 3 relates to Leutnant Hans Fuß. Here as Staffelkapitän of 6./JG 3 (appointed on 1 Aug 42) at Tusow (as from 11 Aug 42). On the picture is Me 109F-4, w/nr 13248. On the tail are 67 victory-bars - on 17 Aug 42 Fuß claimed number 67 and on 21 Aug 42 number 68. Picture must have been taken between these dates. Other sources state victory 67 at 9 Aug 42 (then picture might have been taken at Frolow).

I am unaware of bird wing markings at other Me 109's of 6./JG 3 or in II./JG 3. Could this Me 109F-4 previously been of JG 52??

II./JG 3 was still flying with Me 109F-4 at that time. One of the last missions from Frolow on 23 Aug 43 and then replaced with Me 109G-2 at Köningsberg end of August/beginning September 1942.

Best regards,
Rob

[Larry Hickey]

Rob,

Thanx for your comments about the Fuss a/c. I will leave it to Jochen whether this is a former JG52 a/c. On this a/c this seems to have been most probably a personal insignia if it wasn't a transfer from JG52.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[ChrisS]

Gentlemen,

The arguments for the emblem being 1./JG 52 are presented by Sinisa Sestanovic here: http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...l=%223.jg52%22

Happy Christmas!

Chris

[Rob Romero]

Larry,

Who are the pilots in your first post?

Thanks,

Rob Romero

[Larry Hickey]

Rob,

I don't know this. I just posted the photos for Jochen. This time frame is outside my area of expertise.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[Crimea River]

Someone has produced the eagle with roundel and posted under JG2 here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/per...tor-35198.html. Perhaps this person has some info.