Need info: BF109 with checkerboard pattern on nose

[JBAviationArt]

Hi,

I have spoken with a B-17 tail gunner from the 351st BG 508th Sqdrn who
shot down a Bf109 with yellow and red checkerboard on the nose up to the cockpit. I have never seen or heard about such a paint job on a BF109. Earlier on the same mission he shot down an FW190. Here is some more data about the mission:

Aircraft# 42-97843
Mission# 178
28 Jul 1944 (Fri)
Pilot: Dreyer, Elmer J 0-697403
Sqdrn 508
Target Merseberg

The tail gunners name is Art Kemp.

Can anyone verify the paint scheme on the BF109? I am recreating the account as a painting for a magazine and I am concerned that if I go to "artist interpretation" that I may get it way wrong. I have not found anything and I am concluding that it was a personal (unrecorded) paint job. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

www.jbaviationart.com

[harrison987]

Hi!

The Me109 never had a checkbaord pattern on the nose. If you do a search wihtin this forum using the keyword "checkerboard", you will find a few threads on the subject.

When it came to markings, the Germans were fairly strict strict on what markings went where. Certain provisions were given to having a coloured (yellow) nose, nose band, oil cooler, etc. Some bands were wide...some thin...some noses not completely painted at all...slightly different placement, etc.

JG1 was famous for having the checkrboard nose in 1943. They constantly flew high altitude missions to intercept bombers of the 8th AF. As part of the "Defense of the Reich", JG1 started using distinctive coloured fuselage bands to as a quick identification in combat. The bands were abandoned during early 1944, however. The checkerboards were divided into black-white, black-red and black-yellow for the 1, 2 and 3 Staffeln respectively.

JG1 was stationed in Central and Western Germany from 1943-1945. I would almost say 100%, it was a Fw190, which was mis-ID'd as Me109...even a P-51 is a possibility. For sure not an Me109, though...


Mike

[drgondog]

Yellow and red checker pattern of course was also on the 357FG from March 1944 to end of war. Would not be the first 51 a bomber gunner shot down..

The first BD bombed heading S and rallied south of Merseburg near Erfurt before returning due west. Most of the LW reaction was from South toward Erfurt. The 355th FG engaged at Erfurt and 50 miles further west. I don't have my reference material so don't know what the 357FG was doing on 28 July but Leipzig and Merseburg took the brunt of 8th AF Heavies.

[Broncazonk]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Yellow and red checker pattern of course was also on the 357FG from March 1944 to end of war. Would not be the first P-51 a bomber gunner shot down...

After all these years, a surviving B-17 tail-gunner discovers that he shot down one of his own guys...

Might make for a more interesting painting though...

Bronc

[Tom Semenza]

The 357th also came to mind for me on the mention of the red and yellow checkered nose. However on consulting Merle Olmsted's books on the 357th FG no mention is made of any activity on July 28. Neither are any losses or claims listed for that date. The unit was very heavily engaged however on both the 29th and 30th.

[hucks216]

An interesting dilemma - if it does turn out to of been a P-51 would you tell the veteran or allow him to continue to believe it was an enemy aircraft? Does he know that you were planning a piece of artwork depicting the scene?

[drgondog]

Tom - more than a few Mustangs were shot at by 8th BC gunners when no enemy aircraft were present. I know of two instances for the 355th, one on 26 April, 1944 when Bill Boulet was hit by a 1st BD B-17 while 'essing across the top of the High Sqdrn. He was kept in solitary confinement for three weeks as a suspected spy before another 355th pilot was captured three weeks after him and confirmed his ID.

Sumner Williams was hit by B-24 gunner on August 12 near Strasbourg and lost a couple of cylinders but was able to make it back to friendly lines in France.

No enemy fighters anywhere.

[ju55dk]

Well perhaps he did'nt shoot down anything? The claims from the gunners on the B-17's were at times wildly exagerated.

Junker

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by ju55dk

Well perhaps he did'nt shoot down anything? The claims from the gunners on the B-17's were at times wildly exagerated.

Junker

True - but the question was the ID of a red/yellow chechered nose on a perceived in-line engine fighter that he shot at..

I would be interesting to get the gunners recollection of the time and place of the encounter.

The 1st BD bombed Merseburg ~ 0900. At approximately 0920 six Me-109s attacked a box of the 1st BD B-17s just east of Mulhausen. My father was leading the 354FS when that happened and observed one Me-109 to blow up attacking the Forts and then he got on the tail of another one and chased him all the way to the deck where the 109 crashed and burned.

The 358FS/355th intercepted another gaggle of mixed 109s and 190s near Erfurt at the Rally point, also attacking the 1st BD at the Rally point. The 190 shot down by McElroy was almost certain to be Hirschfeld's.

So there were at least two recorded attacks between 0900 and 0920 by 109s from Merseburg to Mulhausen.