Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 23rd November 2019, 14:40
Cees Steijger Cees Steijger is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Zeewolde/Netherlands
Posts: 75
Cees Steijger
Part from P-51B of P-51D?




Hi, the photograph shows a bracket for the hydraulic hand pump support in the fuselage. The part number is 102-58607. It was found in Lake Wolderwijd, former lake IJsselmeer aka Zuiderzee. Most logical is that the part is from P-51D 44-13411 334FS/4FG which crashed on 20 November 1944 in the lake: several parts of that machine have been found and most part of the plane was salvaged in 1970. According to the Parts Catalog 01-60JD-4 of 1 June 1944 the bracket is from a P-51 B-model.. The Parts Catalog from the P-51D doesn't mention this part...who can clarify?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 23rd November 2019, 19:10
RSwank RSwank is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bloomington, IN USA
Posts: 1,217
RSwank is on a distinguished road
Re: Part from P-51B of P-51D?

The P-51D did not have the hand hydraulic pump.

Here is a video which gets into a cockpit tour of a P-51B. At the 3:35 point, the narrator points out the hand pump and comments that the P-51D did not have one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVWtL77f12c

You can also look at page 5 of the P-51D manual
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...l-5april44.pdf

It notes that "No emergency hydraulic hand pump is provided."
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 23rd November 2019, 19:48
Crimea River Crimea River is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 103
Crimea River is on a distinguished road
Re: Part from P-51B of P-51D?

Part 102-58607 shows up in the P-51B Parts Catalogue and is item 4 in the attached figure.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Capture.JPG (36.7 KB, 24 views)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 23rd November 2019, 22:01
Cees Steijger Cees Steijger is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Zeewolde/Netherlands
Posts: 75
Cees Steijger
Re: Part from P-51B of P-51D?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSwank View Post
The P-51D did not have the hand hydraulic pump.

Here is a video which gets into a cockpit tour of a P-51B. At the 3:35 point, the narrator points out the hand pump and comments that the P-51D did not have one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVWtL77f12c

You can also look at page 5 of the P-51D manual
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...l-5april44.pdf

It notes that "No emergency hydraulic hand pump is provided."
Thanks for the confirmation! That actually means that there is an unknown P-51B in lake Woldewijd. The information I got was that 'a fighter' was discovered during dredging work - the wrackage was marked. No further info. --Cees
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 23rd November 2019, 22:02
Cees Steijger Cees Steijger is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Zeewolde/Netherlands
Posts: 75
Cees Steijger
Re: Part from P-51B of P-51D?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimea River View Post
Part 102-58607 shows up in the P-51B Parts Catalogue and is item 4 in the attached figure.
Thanks for this. Can we exclude that early models P-51D were modified with a handpump?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 24th November 2019, 03:09
RSwank RSwank is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bloomington, IN USA
Posts: 1,217
RSwank is on a distinguished road
Re: Part from P-51B of P-51D?

According to Joe Baugher's site:

44-13411 (4th FG, 334th FS) in midair collision over Zuider Zee, Holland Nov 20, 1944. MACR 10535. Wreckage recovered 1970; Zuid-Flevoland

and

44-13615 (4th FG, 334th FS) in midair collison over Zuider Zee, Holland Nov 20, 1944. MACR 10536. Parts recovered 1978; Veluwemeer.

Did they collide with each other? Both are model: North American P-51D-5-NA
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 24th November 2019, 10:34
Cees Steijger Cees Steijger is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Zeewolde/Netherlands
Posts: 75
Cees Steijger
Re: Part from P-51B of P-51D?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSwank View Post
According to Joe Baugher's site:

44-13411 (4th FG, 334th FS) in midair collision over Zuider Zee, Holland Nov 20, 1944. MACR 10535. Wreckage recovered 1970; Zuid-Flevoland

and

44-13615 (4th FG, 334th FS) in midair collison over Zuider Zee, Holland Nov 20, 1944. MACR 10536. Parts recovered 1978; Veluwemeer.

Did they collide with each other? Both are model: North American P-51D-5-NA
Yes they did. This incident is well documented. Actually, currently writing the book 'Frankie' about 44-13411 - pilot Werner MIA, never found. What makes this part found in the lake nearby the crash site of 44-13411 so interesting is that it is from a B-model....According to the Dutch crash register only one P-51B ever crashed in the lake. That was 43-12485 of 354FG/353FS. But that one crashed some 60 kilometers north of the location where the part was found. Was the P-51D-5NA variant different and did it have the hand pump installed? --Cees
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 24th November 2019, 11:20
SteveB SteveB is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 321
SteveB is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Part from P-51B of P-51D?

In the version of the P-51D/K parts catalogue that I have the hydraulic hand pump and associated parts are clearly listed and illustrated...the pump assembly is 106/109-580241. Two parts "Angle assembly - hydraulic hand pump mounting RH & LH" are listed 106-58737 and -1.

Steve
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 24th November 2019, 13:17
Cees Steijger Cees Steijger is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Zeewolde/Netherlands
Posts: 75
Cees Steijger
Re: Part from P-51B of P-51D?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveB View Post
In the version of the P-51D/K parts catalogue that I have the hydraulic hand pump and associated parts are clearly listed and illustrated...the pump assembly is 106/109-580241. Two parts "Angle assembly - hydraulic hand pump mounting RH & LH" are listed 106-58737 and -1.

Steve
Yes I saw that too. But the part nr. 102-58607 is not mentioned. Actually I read numerous publications that state the P-51D had no hand pump...for instance here: https://books.google.nl/books?id=MsP...0P-51D&f=false

It seems a hard nut to crack...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 24th November 2019, 13:44
RSwank RSwank is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bloomington, IN USA
Posts: 1,217
RSwank is on a distinguished road
Re: Part from P-51B of P-51D?

I am beginning to wonder if the sequence of events could be as follows. The first models of the P-51D did not have a hand pump. The hand pump was used in earlier P-51 models to move the flaps.

This quote is from P-51 pilots check list: http://www.aerofiles.com/checklist-p51.html


"There is NO emergency wing flap operation provided on the P-51D, as the hand pump has been eliminated. On all earlier models of the P-51, put flap selector to desired position and operate the hand pump until it seizes. Flaps will be in desired position and will stay there until another selection is made."

Suppose that then field modifications (perhaps not "official") were made to install the Model B hand pump in the Model D because of pilot demand.

Next, at some point, the hand pump (now with model D numbers) was added back to the model D and K P-51 construction as Steve B's parts catalog seems to show.

There is also a "late" version of the P-51 D/K parts catalog that can be downloaded from here:

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/thread...catalog.50278/

What is interesting is the section on the "hand pump" (now called part number 109-580243 which supersedes part number 106/109-580241) has a notation that the hand pump will come wrapped in felt and is stowed as loose equipment. It will not be factory installed.

I would appear that the AAF went "back and forth" on whether the hand pump should be in the model D/K. Finally they just made it "optional" and included a pump that could be field installed if desired.

If this theory is correct, it would appear that the Model B pump bracket that was found was part of the Model D that crashed. It seems unlikely there also is a complete "P-51B" at the same crash site.

Last edited by RSwank; 24th November 2019 at 18:21.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Part Two of Hs 123 eArticle available Morten Jessen Books and Magazines 12 7th January 2019 19:32
eArticle available: History of 2(H)/14 - Part One Morten Jessen Books and Magazines 2 10th February 2018 09:49
Checkertails Part 2 - The P-51 Era is now online. A free documentary for everyone Mysticpuma Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 11th February 2013 21:08
RAF losses 5./6. March 1945 JanZ Allied and Soviet Air Forces 13 25th February 2012 12:40
Links here to "Checkertails" Part 1 of Mysticpuma's Documentary Mysticpuma Movies and Documentaries 3 2nd December 2010 13:16


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net