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  #21  
Old 15th March 2022, 20:58
mars mars is offline
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Re: Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45

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Originally Posted by JBL1177 View Post
From here in the USA, I have had excellent service acquiring books from Blackwell's in the UK and have already placed an order for "Verified Victories" with them.

Best wishes,
John

Yeah, BlacWell's is good place to order books from Helion, from other publisher's catalog, I will pick out the books that I want to buy, but from Helion's catalog, I will pick out the books that I DO NOT want to buy
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  #22  
Old 17th April 2022, 19:30
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
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Re: Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45

Hello All,

Just received my copy of this publication, What a superb work of research along with much new information! There are color profiles and useful summaries of Russian battle strengths.
The narrative is well written with some unpublished photographs. Three thumbs up!
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  #23  
Old 17th April 2022, 20:42
alessandro bray alessandro bray is offline
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Re: Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45

Hello,

Superb book, great amount of research!

Alessandro
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  #24  
Old 8th June 2022, 05:48
mars mars is offline
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Re: Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45

Hi, Gabor, I am reading your book, currently the chapter of Erich Hartmann, in which you mentioned the "friendly fire" incident between VVS and UAAAF "such as a P-38 Lightning and Soviet Airacobras over Kiev in June 1944. P-38s and Yak-9s over NIs on 7 November 1944 and P-51s, B-17s and B-24s against Yaks around the Oder River on 18 March 1945"

I believe I have enough information relate to the Nis incident, but I have no knowledge about other two incidents, could you provide me some information ?
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  #25  
Old 8th June 2022, 16:28
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45

Greetings mars,
I hope you are enjoying Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45.
The incidents you mention (footnotes 111-113 in the Hartmann chapter) are somehow rarely talked about but are important and did hold serious implications during the war in terms of USAAF and VVS cooperation an operational teamwork [these events were important because they ACTUALLY happened as compared to... well... one will just have to read the rest of that chapter ]
June 1944:
A P-38 (perhaps an F-5 variant? 1Lt. David K. Rowe) was shot down over (just outside ) Kiev by 9 IAK PVO, 39 GvIAP PVO around 9500m, 09:10MT after the Lightning did not identify itself. The USAAF pilot survived the incident. (Notice this event occurred before the famous Nis incident!)
March 18 1945:
This is the big one. USAAF losses are 2x B-17G (44-8276, 42-102483), 3x P-51D-15 (44-15629, 44-15137, 44-15369), 1x B-24J (42-50599). VVS losses are 3x Yak-9 (c/n known to me: 1815346, 40166024 | 1 lost in air combat, 1 MIA, 1 burst into flames when taking off). This day the USAAF were in full "strafing mode" and, once again just like at Nis, through navigational error (lets hope it was only this) they searched for targets beyond the Oder River and began to strafe VVS units at Morin airfield. This lead to very high tensions throughout the day and the Soviet retaliated towards the USAAF aircraft coming over the river in the afternoon later in the day. These are not pleasant war stories by any means, but they are true... unlike, well... one will have to read the rest of the Hartmann chapter.

Cheers,
Gabor
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  #26  
Old 8th June 2022, 17:27
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Peter Kassak Peter Kassak is offline
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Re: Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45

my small pence to this beginnig of cold war era

2 April 1945
In the Stockerau area of ​​Austria at about 12:00. three single-engine enemy aircraft flying side by side and six single-engine two-seater aircraft flying in triples at 5,000 feet were observed by pilots of 14.FG. They flew at 9 o'clock to formation of P-38s, flying at 6,000 feet. After approaching, the Lightning pilots identified these aircraft as six Soviet Shturmoviks Il-2, which, however, opened fire on the Americans. The P-38 pilots fluttered their wings, but the shooting did not stop. That's why the P-38 pilots turned away. The three planes that were identified as Jaks were at 2,000 feet when the middle plane began to smoke. Shortly afterwards, the middle aircraft made a 180 degree turn at position 4740/1755 (South of Trnava, Slovakia) and as the P-38 flew off, a fall and explosion of this machine was observed.

Joe Onesty has been with the 48th Fighter Squadron in Italy since November 1944 and flew 27 missions by May 1945. The fighter sweep mission on April 2, 1945, north of Vienna, lasted 6 hours and 4 minutes. "I flew in a P-38L. I remember flying north of the target area in close formation when we saw Russian planes about 3,000 feet below us, heading south and also in close formation. It was a mixed group of two-seater aircraft, with the turret facing back. One rear gunner opened fire in our direction. I could clearly see the trajectories of the missiles and the flames from the muzzle of the barrel. I flew on the right side of the formation and so I disengaged on the right side down to the "attacker" and then the shooting stopped. I did not fire from my weapons and immediately returned to the formation. It took a few seconds. Their 10-15 planes probably continued to their base. "

At 1:05 p.m. Moscow time (i.e. 12:05 CET) flew four Yaks-9 belonging to the 331st IAD, 513.IAP, led by Grigoriev to accompany the group of Il-2 belonging to the 451st GShAD. The crews of Il-2s over the target, which were enemy forces near the village of Pernek, perfectly fulfilled the task of ground tracking and the result of three attacks was the destruction of four cars and about 15 enemy soldiers. After firing ammunition, the Shturmoviks and their protection turned back to the base. At that time, they were attacked by 10-12 enemy aircraft. Shturmovik crews reported the presence of 12 FW 189s (probably the only two-fuselaged enemy aircraft that came into consideration) and two Me 109s. Gunner Vasily V. Prokofiev (Прокофьев В.В.) from the crews of pilot Viktor A. Basharova (Башаров В.А.) "repulsed several attacks" of the enemy. According to the fighters, after returning from the action, the enemy's aircraft were two-fuselaged, twin-engine, and until then Soviet pilots did not encounter them. The air clash took place in the area of ​​Trnava. The result was the loss of Jak-9T serial number 1915333, with engine number 351-43. The machine was piloted st. Lieutenant Alexander G. Grigoriev (Григорьев А.Г.) and was lost without testimony.
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also: Zerstorer Research Work Group,
"Geschichte des Zerstörergeschwader 76"
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  #27  
Old 8th June 2022, 17:29
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45

Gabor

Trying to check your data with what I have for the s/n you mention
44-8276 837BS 487BG hit by flak 30 sec before bombing (target Zossen Army HQ), pilot headed for Poland but crew
bailed out. Strafed by Russian fighters who it seems killed two.

42-102483 does not seem to have left USA?
Only unit listed is 325 BU at Avon Park (20 Dec 1944) and salvaged by RFC at Walnut Ridge 20 Aug 1945
Some other s/n perhaps?

44-15137 350FS 353FG bounced by two "La 5" over Oder River (Berlin mission). Pilot bailed out

44-15369 487FS 352FG bounced by four Yak fighters near Schwiebus (Berlin mission). Pilot bailed out.

44-15629 (no data) but I have 44-14629 487FS 352FG (Berlin mission) probably shot down by Soviet
fighters on this day. Pilot killed
Most likely the same one. Don't know if your or my aircraft data is correct.

42-50599 791BS 467BG (Berlin mission) hit by flak over Berlin and tried to reach the Soviet side. Landed
on Bydgoszcz airfield. No encounter with Soviet aircraft.

Cheers
Stig

PS: Got your book two hours ago!!!
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  #28  
Old 8th June 2022, 17:52
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45

Peter, very sad stories indeed BTW we have have same information for 2.4.1945


Stig, thanks for the info! I have the MACRs for most of these incidents so I will expand based on them:


42-50599 was hit by Yaks. "Three Russian Yak fighter planes then came up and the 109 left. I noticed the large Red Star on the fuselage of the Russian planes and started dipping the left wing. They looked us over and turned back towards the tail. A minute later we heard a rain of slugs going through the waist and bomb bay. I think each ship made one pass, as we were raked over three times. We were over Russian lines.... After the second Yak made a pass at us, I told the co-pilot to order the crew to bail out." MACR 15454 page 6.

44-15137 was battling with La-5. Not the operational theater over Hungary so please forgive us for this, mea culpa

42-102483 - mea MAXIMA culpa, probably 42-102481 nickname "Kentucky Winner", R-1820-97 engine #'s: SW-024398, SW-01600, SW-023359, 41-42768. MACR 13141 page 2.

44-15629 - This IS 44-15629. nickname "Ellen Jerry", V-1650-7 engine #: V326788. MACR 13411 page 2.


Hope you enjoy the book!
Cheers,

Gabor
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  #29  
Old 8th June 2022, 18:29
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45

Hi Gabor

Quite odd how one MACR can be read so differently (I don't have it)
MACR 15454 must say that the two crew who were killed was done so by the Flak hit and not the Soviet fighters.
My source mentions nothing about any Soviet attack or about the remaining crew bailing out.
Only a force landing....

42-102481 550BS 385BG yes that's the one. It was initially hit by Flak but later also by Soviet fighters and crash
landed at north of Grodiskz. Sorry I missed that one!

44-15629, yes, I located the correct s/n elsewhere.

Cheers
Stig
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  #30  
Old 8th June 2022, 21:49
mars mars is offline
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mars
Re: Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45

Quote:
Originally Posted by HGabor View Post
Greetings mars,
I hope you are enjoying Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45.
The incidents you mention (footnotes 111-113 in the Hartmann chapter) are somehow rarely talked about but are important and did hold serious implications during the war in terms of USAAF and VVS cooperation an operational teamwork [these events were important because they ACTUALLY happened as compared to... well... one will just have to read the rest of that chapter ]
June 1944:
A P-38 (perhaps an F-5 variant? 1Lt. David K. Rowe) was shot down over (just outside ) Kiev by 9 IAK PVO, 39 GvIAP PVO around 9500m, 09:10MT after the Lightning did not identify itself. The USAAF pilot survived the incident. (Notice this event occurred before the famous Nis incident!)
March 18 1945:
This is the big one. USAAF losses are 2x B-17G (44-8276, 42-102483), 3x P-51D-15 (44-15629, 44-15137, 44-15369), 1x B-24J (42-50599). VVS losses are 3x Yak-9 (c/n known to me: 1815346, 40166024 | 1 lost in air combat, 1 MIA, 1 burst into flames when taking off). This day the USAAF were in full "strafing mode" and, once again just like at Nis, through navigational error (lets hope it was only this) they searched for targets beyond the Oder River and began to strafe VVS units at Morin airfield. This lead to very high tensions throughout the day and the Soviet retaliated towards the USAAF aircraft coming over the river in the afternoon later in the day. These are not pleasant war stories by any means, but they are true... unlike, well... one will have to read the rest of the Hartmann chapter.

Cheers,
Gabor
Thank you, and yes, I enjoy your book immensely.
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