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  #1  
Old 5th July 2020, 13:12
Cees Steijger Cees Steijger is offline
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USAAF operations 6 October 1944

Unfortunately NARA is still in Corona-mode....the documents I requested will take a while to get to me.

Therefore: who can help me with information about USAAF Mission 667 on 6 October 1944 to Stettin/Stargard (1st BD), Hamburg/Wenzendorf (2nd BD) and Berlin/Spandau/Tegel (3rd BD)?

1 - Particularly I am looking for the targets in Berlin: Spandau (2 targets) and Tegel (1 target). Which were the CW's that attacked these targets? Which BG's were in the lead?

2 - What about the Fighter Escorts? According to Roger Freeman's War Diary the 2nd BG was escorted by 168 P-47, and the 1st and 3rd BD's by a total of 616 P-51. It seems to me that the Fighter Group assignment each to a BD, was not practiced on this mission? From 351 BG Group Mission, we know that they were escorted by 4 groups (of 67FW?). Apparently all P-47's groups available were concentrated on the 2nd BD (nearest target) and the rest of the fighters from 66 and 65 FW to escort the 3rd BD? Seems logical to me, but was it the case?

Who can help to shed light?

--Cees

Last edited by Cees Steijger; 5th July 2020 at 14:22.
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Old 5th July 2020, 15:55
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: USAAF operations 6 October 1944

You can start with this http://www.8thafhs.com/tomt.php
Click on the 4th circle (Missions) and enter the date 10/06/1944.
The “Mission Narrative” says:

2. 418 B-17s are dispatched to Berlin to hit a munitions dump at Berlin/Spandau (144), aircraft factories at Berlin/Spandau (138) and tank factory at Berlin/Tegel (100); 10 hit a target of opportunity. 17 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 234 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 4 WIA and 154 MIA. Escort is provided by 363 of 414 P-51s; they claim 15-0-5 aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost and 3 damaged.

You can then work through the individual “Mission Reports” (2nd Blue Box at the top) to try and get individual BG reports. For those BG links that no-longer work, try to find them in the “Internet Archives” https://archive.org/

Checking Fold3 Free Photos for “Tegel” or “Spandau” reveals several photos taken during the October 6 attacks.
Here are some examples:
https://www.fold3.com/image/50798043
https://www.fold3.com/image/50798052?terms=spandau

https://www.fold3.com/image/50798083
https://www.fold3.com/image/50798094

https://www.fold3.com/image/50798018?terms=spandau
https://www.fold3.com/image/50798034

https://www.fold3.com/image/50797976?terms=Tegel
https://www.fold3.com/image/50797987


There is a mention of the October 6 raid in this writeup:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkett

Last edited by RSwank; 5th July 2020 at 17:05.
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Old 5th July 2020, 17:25
Cees Steijger Cees Steijger is offline
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Re: USAAF operations 6 October 1944

Good Stuff! Not a lot is known of the mission on 6 October 1944. I've checked most of the MACR's of that day for info/insight etc. Not a lot. Most reports refer to 'Berlin' as target.

After researching the literature I've been able to identified the individual targets.
1. BMW-Werke Spandau
2. Spandauer Stahlwerke
3. Deutsche Industriewerke
Two and three are very close to each other (and close to Siemensstadt, in fact close to an awful lot of targets...what to think of the Fliegerhorste Staaken and Gatow at 4-6 km west of Spandau, or even Döberitz (jägerleitstelle and HQ 1.Jagddivision!) and birthplace of the German military aviation at ca. 1,5 minutes flight time from the aiming point...Anyway.

What the fighter support concerns:
It seems that 56, 78, 353 and 356 FG's escorted the B-24's to Hamburg area.
1BD was escorted by 20, 352, 359 and 364 FG's while 3BD was escorted by 4, 55, 339, 355, 357, 358, 362 and 479 FG's. I'm still tripple checking this.

--Cees

Edit: The target in Tegel was Rheinmetal-Borsigwerke

Last edited by Cees Steijger; 6th July 2020 at 12:56. Reason: Addition
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Old 5th July 2020, 18:35
KM1957 KM1957 is offline
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Re: USAAF operations 6 October 1944

Here are a few bits of information from three fighter groups: 20th Fighter Group met six Combat Wings of 1st AD, bombers thought to have bombed Stargard and Stettin. 359th Fighter Group escorted 1st AD which hot targets of opportunity, including Stettin and Stalsend. The 364th Fighter Group provided uneventful escort to 1st AD B-17's; bombing appeared good at A/F at Stargard. The 356th Fighter Group escorted B-24's to the Hamburg area.

Kent
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Old 6th July 2020, 12:42
Cees Steijger Cees Steijger is offline
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Re: USAAF operations 6 October 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by KM1957 View Post
Here are a few bits of information from three fighter groups: 20th Fighter Group met six Combat Wings of 1st AD, bombers thought to have bombed Stargard and Stettin. 359th Fighter Group escorted 1st AD which hot targets of opportunity, including Stettin and Stalsend. The 364th Fighter Group provided uneventful escort to 1st AD B-17's; bombing appeared good at A/F at Stargard. The 356th Fighter Group escorted B-24's to the Hamburg area.

Kent
Ok, good! This confirms 67FW supporting 1BD! The other FW (65 and 66) sans P-47 units were escorting 3BD. Thanks --Cees
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Old 6th July 2020, 17:11
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Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
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Re: USAAF operations 6 October 1944

In such cases, in addition to Roger Freeman's War Diary and Kent's books (and Donald Caldwell's Day Fighters in Defence of the Reich: A War Diary), there's one nice online source, the database from Duxford Museum. Here's the entry for this mission: https://www.americanairmuseum.com/mission/376
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Old 10th July 2020, 17:30
Cees Steijger Cees Steijger is offline
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Re: USAAF operations 6 October 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfred.MONZAT View Post
In such cases, in addition to Roger Freeman's War Diary and Kent's books (and Donald Caldwell's Day Fighters in Defence of the Reich: A War Diary), there's one nice online source, the database from Duxford Museum. Here's the entry for this mission: https://www.americanairmuseum.com/mission/376

Sure those are good sources. For a good picture of the USAAF fighter operations (much) more research is often required.
The Duxford database is great, but be careful: double checking is required, since the database is a kind of wiki where everybody can ad/delete/alter/correct as they see fit. https://www.8thafhs.org/ is a good one too, but also here: double check everything. In general, my advice is to use the original documents for research, thus the field orders, mission reports, the macrs etc.
But also the official information e.g. on the actual targets is not always complete/correct - Freeman et al based its publications largely on these official reports. I usually use German sources to identify the targets and often I visit the locations for on the spot research.
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