Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 19th September 2024, 13:01
Peter Cook Peter Cook is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 274
Peter Cook is on a distinguished road
Spitfire Claim by Uffz. Mutan of II./ZG 76

On page 281 of volume 3 of the Lufwaffe Crash Archive, author Nigel Parker reproduces a transcript of a combat report by Uffz. Mutan, a Bf 110 pilot of II./ZG 76, who claimed a Spitfire on 30 Augut 1940. I can't find a record of a claim by Mutan, or any biographical information. Can anyone identify this pilot?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 19th September 2024, 13:08
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,380
Chris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura about
Re: Spitfire Claim by Uffz. Mutan of II./ZG 76

My list of ZG 76 pilots has nobody anywhere near matching this name. John Vasco might have an idea? VDK has nobody with such a name
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 19th September 2024, 19:48
Peter Cook Peter Cook is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 274
Peter Cook is on a distinguished road
Re: Spitfire Claim by Uffz. Mutan of II./ZG 76

Thanks Chris, I will check with Simon Parry to see if I can get a copy of the original report that was used by Parker.

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 20th September 2024, 08:08
Peter Kassak's Avatar
Peter Kassak Peter Kassak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 975
Peter Kassak is on a distinguished road
Re: Spitfire Claim by Uffz. Mutan of II./ZG 76

I also tried to solve this question but came to NO answer...
__________________
Peter Kassak
peterkassak (aT) gmail.com
http://www.airwarsk.sk


also: Zerstorer Research Work Group,
"Geschichte des Zerstörergeschwader 76"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 23rd September 2024, 09:15
Johannes Johannes is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,368
Johannes has a spectacular aura aboutJohannes has a spectacular aura aboutJohannes has a spectacular aura about
Re: Spitfire Claim by Uffz. Mutan of II./ZG 76

Hi Peter

Almost all the typed-out pre daily mikrofilms are missing for the ZG units, however II./ZG76's has survived, lot's of claims this day, but nothing for a Uffz Mutan. In fact the rank is low for a pilot(perhaps a bordfunker). Either it was never confirmed, or the papers a fake or another name, but can't be an Uffz for this date.

Kind Regards

Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 23rd September 2024, 23:26
John Vasco's Avatar
John Vasco John Vasco is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Norwich, originally Liverpool
Posts: 1,079
John Vasco will become famous soon enough
Re: Spitfire Claim by Uffz. Mutan of II./ZG 76

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Hi Peter

Almost all the typed-out pre daily mikrofilms are missing for the ZG units, however II./ZG76's has survived, lot's of claims this day, but nothing for a Uffz Mutan. In fact the rank is low for a pilot(perhaps a bordfunker). Either it was never confirmed, or the papers a fake or another name, but can't be an Uffz for this date.

Kind Regards

Johannes
No it isn't. There were plent of Uffz. pilots in the Battle of Britain, and some as lowly as Gefr.
__________________
Wir greifen schon an!

Splinter Live at The Cavern, November 2006: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxOCksQUKbI

Danke schön, Dank schön ich bin ganz comfortable!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 24th September 2024, 05:01
Johannes Johannes is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,368
Johannes has a spectacular aura aboutJohannes has a spectacular aura aboutJohannes has a spectacular aura about
Re: Spitfire Claim by Uffz. Mutan of II./ZG 76

Hi

Ranks actually go down as low as flieger, but not usually among pilots with other crew members, and they nearly but not always outranked their crew members. Some officers were demoted to flieger as punishment.

Ranks got lower towards the end of the war also. With II./ZG 76 after France May 1940 claimants ranks got higher on average.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

Guess you know that bordfunkers claims seemed to count towards the pilots score, but the mikrofilms give the credit to the gunner himself, but they do not indicate whether gunner or pilot, so you need to know your crews. Also gunners nearly always claimed fighters i.e Spitfires.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 24th September 2024, 11:30
John Vasco's Avatar
John Vasco John Vasco is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Norwich, originally Liverpool
Posts: 1,079
John Vasco will become famous soon enough
Re: Spitfire Claim by Uffz. Mutan of II./ZG 76

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Hi

Ranks actually go down as low as flieger, but not usually among pilots with other crew members, and they nearly but not always outranked their crew members. Some officers were demoted to flieger as punishment.

Ranks got lower towards the end of the war also. With II./ZG 76 after France May 1940 claimants ranks got higher on average.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

Guess you know that bordfunkers claims seemed to count towards the pilots score, but the mikrofilms give the credit to the gunner himself, but they do not indicate whether gunner or pilot, so you need to know your crews. Also gunners nearly always claimed fighters i.e Spitfires.

11th August 1940
1./ErpGr. 210 Messerschmitt Bf110C-6. Shot down by RAF fighters following attack on convoy east of Harwich and ditched in the sea with starboard engine alight 12.00 p.m. Pilot Gefreiter Christian Weiss killed, Bordfunker Obergefreiter Richard Keilhaupt missing.
__________________
Wir greifen schon an!

Splinter Live at The Cavern, November 2006: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxOCksQUKbI

Danke schön, Dank schön ich bin ganz comfortable!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 24th September 2024, 12:28
Peter Cook Peter Cook is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 274
Peter Cook is on a distinguished road
Re: Spitfire Claim by Uffz. Mutan of II./ZG 76

I have had an email exchange with Nigel Parker, the author of the Luftwaffe Crash Archive – which reproduced the combat report – who states the following:

"Looking at the title of the report it states that it was found on a Luftwaffe airman so I would conclude that it came from air intelligence (it doesn't state whether he was alive or dead, or in fact identifies him). As Mutan was only an Uffz I doubt that he was going around randomly signing combat reports so I would presume that it was his work. Perhaps the person who it was found on was his commanding officer / intelligence officer who had just put it in his pocket to deal with later. Purely conjecture ... If Uffz Mutan's signed the report I can only conclude that he must have existed. If he put in a claim it may be that the report never got into the correct hands to be corroborated before it fell into the hands of Air Intelligence. We can only speculate."

My thanks to Nigel and all the other respondents.

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 24th September 2024, 17:28
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,380
Chris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura about
Re: Spitfire Claim by Uffz. Mutan of II./ZG 76

...and as I said earlier, Mutan doesn't appear in the VDK or other records
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net