Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 15th June 2013, 03:47
Nokose's Avatar
Nokose Nokose is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Florida (USA)
Posts: 1,777
Nokose will become famous soon enough
Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

Just recently I noticed in JFV 9/II that it has "10.08.42 8./JG 52 Oblt. Guenther Rall LaGG-3 (46) 06:09 Pl.Qu. 05232/ S. Krasnodar". That location and S. of Krasnodar doesn't match. In Tony Woods list I believe its 85 232. Is there a confirmation in Rall's log book?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 15th June 2013, 07:35
Johannes Johannes is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,368
Johannes has a spectacular aura aboutJohannes has a spectacular aura aboutJohannes has a spectacular aura about
Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

Hi

tony Woods is correct in his reading of grid quadrant 85232 altitude 1800 metres, which I worked-out to be East of Stawropoliskaja. But there would be several places with this reference as the grid quadrants reoccure, but they are just about as far apart as can be......it all depends on where the unit is at that time. Also Southwest of Boston would be the same place as Northeast of New York!

Kind Regards

Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 15th June 2013, 16:29
Nokose's Avatar
Nokose Nokose is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Florida (USA)
Posts: 1,777
Nokose will become famous soon enough
Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

Thank you Johannes! The 85 is probably the correct Pl.Qu. even though the Lutwaffe was flying in the 05 and I have found claims in this area on occasion. The S. of Krasnodar seemed kind of wrong for that Pl.Qu. I found Stavropolskaya to the south of Krasnodar. Now I need to verify the Soviet pilot's location and time that I suspect.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 16th June 2013, 11:09
Johannes Johannes is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,368
Johannes has a spectacular aura aboutJohannes has a spectacular aura aboutJohannes has a spectacular aura about
Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

Hi

Rall was particulary meticulous in claiming, he never really had large numbers of claims in a day as he "didn't take risks"! Sad thing is that he lamented the fact that his closest competition Graf, Nowotny and Hartmann received the Brillianten, and he only the Schwerter, yet he would appear to be the only honest claimer amongst them. The Author Bernd Barbas questioned him about the confirmation of number 275, and it would appear that Rall didn't complete the paperwork as he was incapacitated at the time, so 274 it is! All others are confirmed on the micro films, and numbers 199 and 200 are duplicated exactly a month later, which proves that the micro films do harbor mistakes!!!

You will find that if a pilot makes huge daily claims that he is usually being dis-honest, but it's not always the case!

Regards

Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 16th June 2013, 15:50
Oberst Oberst is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 378
Oberst is on a distinguished road
Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

Hartmann wasn't a honest claimer? I beg to differ on that. The Russians tended to lie more about there losses. Easier to do that then to end up in the Gulag.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 16th June 2013, 17:02
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 894
Nick Hector will become famous soon enoughNick Hector will become famous soon enough
Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

If you read the Lipfert war diary, he talks of intercepting the Russian weather reconnaissance flights on many occasions and getting kills that way.
Then go through Rall's victory list and look at the altitudes of some of his kills...

...It starts to become clear that he made kind of a 'career' out of shooting down single aircraft flying at relatively high altitude in comparison to most of the eastern front combats e.g. the weather reconaissance fighters that Lipfert wrote of.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 16th June 2013, 17:36
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 857
Andrey Kuznetsov is on a distinguished road
Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberst View Post
The Russians tended to lie more about there losses. Easier to do that then to end up in the Gulag.
Looks like a cold war stereotype. Info about losses moved by several ways. It wasn't possible to hide the losses. And military archives (TsAMO, TsVMA) contains huge amount of documents with info about losses, and they suitable for cross-checking.

Documents with personal losses are available on-line, in contrast with German NVM, which still unavailable after the closing in the end of Eighties.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 16th June 2013, 18:30
Rasmussen Rasmussen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lower Saxony, Germany
Posts: 690
Rasmussen is on a distinguished road
Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov View Post
Documents with personal losses are available on-line, ...
Where? What's the link?

Regards
Rasmussen
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 16th June 2013, 18:52
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 857
Andrey Kuznetsov is on a distinguished road
Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

http://obd-memorial.ru/flash/

Regards,
Andrey
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 16th June 2013, 19:19
Oberst Oberst is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 378
Oberst is on a distinguished road
Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov View Post
Looks like a cold war stereotype. Info about losses moved by several ways. It wasn't possible to hide the losses. And military archives (TsAMO, TsVMA) contains huge amount of documents with info about losses, and they suitable for cross-checking.

Documents with personal losses are available on-line, in contrast with German NVM, which still unavailable after the closing in the end of Eighties.
Doubt that very much. Things like that to hide is easy to do, in fact, its still common place today.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces Johannes Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 59 15th May 2023 14:38
Zerstorer Staffel Er. Kdo 25 Peter Kassak Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 7 8th April 2014 21:37
Me 109F development Franek Grabowski Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 39 5th July 2008 21:48
Question to Mr. Prien Denpasaro Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 13 17th November 2007 18:55
Status of JFV Vol 9 from the team of Dr. Prien Larry Hickey Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 7th February 2005 21:20


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net