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  #1  
Old 3rd August 2018, 19:55
Evgeny Velichko's Avatar
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Question №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question

Greetings gentlemen!

I have a question:

According to Prien, Jochen; Stemmer, Gerhard; Rodeike, Peter; Bock, Winfried (2012). Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945—Teil 12/III Eutin, Germany: Buchverlag Rogge. ISBN 978-3-942943-07-9., Lt. Lang had his 100th victory on 2 November 1943 - Yak-9 at 15:18, east-southeast of Lyutezh, #7 on that day.

According to Matthews, Andrew Johannes; Foreman, John (2015). Luftwaffe Aces — Biographies and Victory Claims — Volume 2 G–L. Walton on Thames: Red Kite. ISBN 978-1-906592-19-6., Lt. Lang had his 100th victory on 3 November 1943, during his 1st combat mission (~11:00 - 12:00 local time).

According to Norbert Hannig, John Weal (2004).Luftwaffe Fighter Ace: From the Eastern Front to the Defence of the Homeland. Grub Street, ISBN 1904010946, Lt. Lang had his 100th victory on 4 November 1943, during his 4th combat mission (~16:00 - 17:00 local time). He states, that Lang said several times that "he is less several victories before 100", and finally get it on 4th flight. Is it a question of denied/unconfirmed state of some of his previous claims?

Hannig's book have many errors and mistakes (as many memoir books), so it must be 3rd, not 4th November. But what about Dr. Prien's statement about Lang's 100 on 2 November? Is it known, that this video is 100% captured on 3 nov., not 2 nov.?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD0fyHgAZhI

I am puzzled.
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Old 4th August 2018, 11:42
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question

Hi

Speaking on behalf of Foreman/Mathews, I could only find seventeen claims for Lang's best day, and 170 overall not 173 on the mikrofilms, there is also a sub mikrofilm that has all claims by individual pilot, but this is only surviving in alphabet Kr-Le(by memory) and this backs-up my findings in the daily mikrofilm sheets.
The Hannig book you mention I have read, and cannot match anything really about with 3rd November 1943.
Prien's work is usually faultless(except II./JG 2 in Africa, which is entirely incorrect) we match 99.9% of the time. However he does add in other claims not on the mikrofilms with little evidence, hence he has probably added in a couple that I would not consider confirmed.
We did on TOCH discuss Lang's "overclaiming", this I calculated was over a relatively short period within 5./JG 54 from October until November 1943, aided by one Reinhold Hoffmann, can't say that Hannig was involved. Hoffmann himself claiming eight on 3rd November 1943, seven on 21st October 1943 to Lang's twelve, and eight on 22nd October 1943 to Lang's nine. There must have been other "helpers" to a lessor degree. Actually when flying with Alfred Gross Lang's claims return to a less outrageous pattern!
Actually I have noticed a pattern that significant numbers i.e "100", "150" ,"200", and "250" are usually reached on "big days" by top pilots, especially those less than honest at time, but if Hans-Joachim Marseille is anything to go by, then huge days can be done honestly.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 4th August 2018, 12:45
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Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question

Johannes, thx for reply.
Microfilms list Lang's claim on 4 November, but it runs in the line betwee Lang's claims on one mission on 3 November. Also, there was extremly bad weather (almost nil combat missions by VVS and LW both) on 4 November, so I consider this claim as one of 3 November, making day score to 18.

As for overclaiming, for 5./, 6./ and 12./JG54 over Kiev, only 9 of 33 victories are confirmed by soviet losses. Details will be in my article.

Question is, when Lang actually reached his 100?

P.S. #"250" of Kittel is 100% confirmed soviet loss.
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Old 4th August 2018, 13:11
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question

Evgeny,

I’ve been comparing the various sources including Priens JFV, and Foreman/Matthews work and to understand the differences, you need to look at how each was determined.

As Johannes stated in his earlier post, for the Foreman/Matthews work, Johannes has counted only the claims that are supported in the claims files and/or original documentation as being “Confirmed”. Thus, his count of 100 on 3rd November 1943 is the 100th claim that can be identified in original documentation as being “officially confirmed”.

For the Dr Prien’s JFV team, I believe they have tried to fill in the gaps in between known claim/dates, wherever possible. Prior to the release to the general public of the claims files in the late 1990s early 2000s (and posting ot T Woods files), we tended to mostly rely on unit diaries / personal diaries / wartime media reports etc. for individual pilots scores which would generally only detail claim totals in the following circumstances.

- Achieving milestones (i.e. 20, 50, 100 etc)
- Notable feats of achievements (18 in 1 day)
- At time of receiving decorations (119 for RK)
- Transfer in or out of units
- Media/Reports on experts being KIA / MIA

In the case of Lang, I do not have direct proof of the date of his 100th victory, however in Obermeier’s Ritterkreuztrager (which was published in 1966) he states Lang received his RK at 119 Luftsiegen, which matches Priens numbering. Thus, looking at that numbering, it’s highly likely that Lang celebrated his 100th on 2nd November 1943.

However, if you look at all of Lang’s claims in the JFV series you will note that Claims 22-25 are missing, which the JFV team attribute to having occurred around 27 Sept 1943 (no details). If you take these four claims out of Prien’s list then the number 100 matches Johannes 100th confirmed claim (and 115 for the RK not 119).

There are 2 possibilities on how this occurred, either the 4 claims in question are missing from the files and yet to be found or they were not confirmed thus not included. As 6./JG 54 data seems mostly complete the second is the most likely in this circumstance.

How this can occur comes down to the claims process and the fact that it could take many months, even years for a claim to receive official confirmation. In fact, due to the backlog of claims many 1942 and 1943 claims were not processed until late 1944. Therefore, once a pilot made a claim and it was accepted at unit level then forwarded to the relevant authority for confirmation, the pilot/unit would add the claim to his score. So, in November 1943, few, if any, of Lang’s 100 claims to that date would have been officially confirmed and Lang would have been celebrating what he thought was his 100th victory on 2nd November but could have possibly been his 96th confirmed victory with the other four eventually not being confirmed. This is not an unusual event – as similar issues happened with Philipp and Dickfield 100th claim amongst others.

PS Prien’s JFV team also counted the 4th November claim in the Matthews/Foreman list and T Woods list as being on 3rd November to give 18 on that day.


Regards,

Craig…
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Old 4th August 2018, 17:10
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Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question

Thank You gentlemen!

Still I am curious. 2nd or 3rd?

Here is a frontpage, and in lower right angle there is a description, wich state that there was 18 abschusse in one day and #100 abschusse among them!

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Old 4th August 2018, 22:44
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Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question

Evgeny,

What you have just supplied doesn't look good for my argument for what I believed happened.

Only other suggestion I can make is to find the unit diary or from a higher command (if they still exists) as surely they would record the 2 notable events (Lang's 100th and 18 in a day) and whether they were on the same day or not.

Regards,

Craig...
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Old 6th August 2018, 10:47
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Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question

On the video, Lang and Hoffmann
congratulate each other with 100 (Lang) and 50 (Hoffmann). If Lang had
his 100 on evening 2.11.43, then Hoffmann must have his 50 on the same
day. But he also got his 50 on 3.11.43.

Quote:
At last Lang and Lerge returned. They taxied to a halt in front of the hangar, switched off their engines and slid back their canopies. “Made it. Another four.” Emil Lang told us with a broad smile. Laughing, he accepted the mechanics’ congratulations together with their placard bearing the magic number 100. Then he climbed out of the cockpit, jumped down from the wing of his machine and went across to meet Lerge who saluted, hand to the peak of his cap, and reported:
“Unteroffizier Hoffmann returned from mission. Two kills. My congratulations on your four.”
Both had achieved their goal. The correspondents captured the whole
proceedings on film. Photographs were taken, the story was written up
and documented.
Here, same mission:

03.11.43 Fw. Reinhold Hoffmann 5./JG 54 Yak-9 £ W. Valki: at 2.000
m. 14.38 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 921
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Yak-9 £ E. Gostomel: at 1.000
m. 14.45 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 922
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Yak-9 £ W. Vyshgorod: 1.500 m. [N.
Kiev] 14.46 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 924
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ E. Gostomel: at 1.000
m. 14.48 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 925
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ V. Mostischtsche: 1.200
m. 14.49 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 927
03.11.43 Fw. Reinhold Hoffmann 5./JG 54 Yak-9 £ S.E. Lyutezh: 2.500
m. 14.49 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 926



I think, that some of Lang's claims were denied, so he could achieve
his 100 on evening 3.11.

That is why he so hurried to got his 100, so he made extraordinary
overclaim on morning 3.11. - he got 7 (seven) fake claims N from
Lutezh!
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Old 8th August 2018, 12:29
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question

You know it always struck me strange that with Rudorffer/Tangermann it would always be a ratio of two for the leader i.e Lang and Rudorffer, and one for their second i.e Hoffmann and Tangermann, I hope it's just coincidence not a rule, for if it is a rule then there must have been some kind of club involved. I have concluded over the years that this practise was localised, and when a "overclaimer" transfers somewhere else....a honest Geschwader than the practise ends, and his claims almost stop.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 8th August 2018, 13:09
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Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question

This mission:
03.11.43 Fw. Reinhold Hoffmann 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ E. Glebovka: at 300 m. 11.15
03.11.43 Obgefr. Manfred Peschke 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ N.E. Glebovka: at 250 m. 11.16
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ N.E. Lyutezh: 1.000 m. [N. Kiev] 11.31
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ N.N.E. Lyutezh: 200 m. [N. Kiev] 11.32
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ N.E. Kasarovichi: 100 m. 11.33
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Yak-7 £ N.E. Kasarovichi: 50 m. 11.35
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ N.W. Glebovka: at 100 m. 11.36
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Yak-7 £ E.N.E. Glebovka: at 100 m. 11.40
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Yak-7 £ E.N.E. Glebovka: at 50 m. 11.42

Is whole fake claims mission. No even one Il-2 (with escort) ever appeared over that sector at that day.
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Last edited by Evgeny Velichko; 8th August 2018 at 15:15.
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Old 8th August 2018, 15:08
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Thumbs up Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question

Hi,

very interesting post,

checking the claims:

5./JG 54

Reinhold Hoffmann claimed 8 at least 1 was fake
Emil Lang 17 at least 7 were fake
Manfred Peschke 1 so this only was fake

Alfred Gross 1
Friedrich Zander 2

6./JG 54
Albin Wolf 2

12./JG 54
Herbert Aloe 1
Helmut Grollmus 1
Karl-Heinz Luchau 1

just a look into claims and losses, seems the other pilots try to made more reliable claims...

with the info of Evgeny Velichko 33 vs 9, you have more info of the 9 losses to link with claims?

PD

in Nick Hector info:

256 IAD. Only two Yak-7s damaged and forced to belly-land during the whole day for 5 claims...

regards
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