Strange case of Walter Dahl

[knusel]

Good evening FalkeEins,

these are some Konrad Bauer scores mentioned in the books:

• Aders/Held: 18 with JG51, 18 Western front, 14 four-engined, 36 total
• Forsyth: 14/32 four-engined between Apr-Aug44, 39/57 total
• Musciano: 31.10.1944 RK after 34 kills, 32 four-engined, 60/68 total
• Schumann: 18 Eastern front with JG51, 31.10.1944 RK after 34 kills, 32 four-engined with JG3&JG300, 57/68 total
• Toliver/Constable: 32 four-engined, 68 kills total

Let's assume his score of 34 at the time of the Knight's Cross receipt is valid. From Johannes Mathews we know of two claims after that date. Therefore maybe the total of 36 indicated by Aders/Held is correct (?)

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

[Red Baron]

Michael Knusel
answer to your question regarding the exact score of K. Bauer is detailled on page 201 of JG300 chronicle Vol. 1 (by JY Lorant and R. Goyat)
Enjoy the reading !
Dom

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

I have had the fortune to look at the last page of Walter Loos's flugbuch basically flights from 6th March until 30th April 1945. Over this period Dahl states that Loos was witness to nine of his claims, however Loos was not airborne in any of the nine cases, also I cannot see a signature signing-off Dahls Leistungsbuch, actually who outranked him to sign it off?

However Dahl does mention 133 confirmed claims in his own publication, therefore I believe the Leistungsbuch is probably his own fiction, prior to his own flugbuch running-out he probably would be guilty only(sorry I am not trivialising his fraudulent claims) of overclaiming, yet at some point he just seems to make-up a whole rap-sheet of additional claims, I would think this would probably start when he becomes General der flieger and just gross abuses of his authority.
Probably he didn't know that claims records would not be around to contradict him, possibly just a coincidence that this helped keep his secret safe for three-quarters of a century. I would think also the Walter Loos didn't even know about his name being used as a witness.

Surely Dahl must have therefore have ben the worst unofficial over-claimer as opposed to Walter Nowotny as the worst official over-claimer, and frankly I still don't know how he did it at the end, he would be the only guy claiming with the Staff, so no sharing the fraud like he did earlier with Gerhard Loos and Anton Dobele. I would really like to know how he did it, guess it's too bizarre that he could have abused his status as Kommandeur to somehow self witness, would love to see a few of his last abschussemeldung.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[knusel]

Good evening Johannes,

that's a disgrace.

Red Baron,

there Konrad Bauer discussion goes on over there:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...uer#post258344

Michael

[Alfred.MONZAT]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Surely Dahl must have therefore have ben the worst unofficial over-claimer as opposed to Walter Nowotny as the worst official over-claimer, and frankly I still don't know how he did it at the end, he would be the only guy claiming with the Staff, so no sharing the fraud like he did earlier with Gerhard Loos and Anton Dobele. I would really like to know how he did it, guess it's too bizarre that he could have abused his status as Kommandeur to somehow self witness, would love to see a few of his last abschussemeldung.

From the start Johannes you "assume" that Dahl made all this claims during the War, day by day. Have you something to back this ? (no need to show me anything, I'll believe you on word) Because with what I know (and I know much less than you), he may have wrote the Leistungsbuch after the War when he was sure that most Luftwaffe documents were lost.

Regards

[Johannes]

Hi Alfred

Actually I am now believing that Dahl wrote his Leistungsbuch post-war. To say the document is a "fake" is probably not true, it's real in the sense that it's really Dahl's original fiction. There were two other pilots names Dahl used as witnesses a Leutnant Meyer and Oberfeldwebel Bohnenkamp, guess if we can prove behaps that these guys were killed before having their names abused then that would be great, and we are assuming the name used was Walter Loos, but I am 99% sure this is the case.
I am in agreement that it is a disgraceful abuse of Dahl's position, he would have known that the destruction of Luftwaffe documents was ordered at the time, but not how far in reality it actually went. The Leistungsbuch fiction he had written probably must have occurred before 1961, hopefully somebody can confirm it is in Dahl's handwriting, though I guess he could have got anybody to write it!


As to any future biography on my behalf of him, as previously stated I have been warned-off in mentioning any fraudulent claims(so like to point out the honest ones), or mention of any pilots honesty in a bad way, however these were not even fraudulent claims just fictional claims, so without adjusting the status of any fraudulent claims he made prior to 1945, I guess I could list the post General der flieger claims as fiction.

Hope this doesn't put other General der flieger's in bad light, Galland and Molders did not indulge in such a practice of authority abuse. In fact I think the position carried a "combat flying ban" i.e Molders, Galland and Gollob were all banned from further combat, therefore in theory ALL of Dahl's post General der flieger appointment claims should in my opinion be regarded as fiction...……...makes you wonder how he got the position in the first place, actually rumour has it that Gollob was not as honest as his predecessors.


Kind Regards


Johannes

[knusel]

Good morning Johannes,

Dahl clearly assumed that there would never be such a dedicated historian like you.
A definite proof for his 1945 kills being a postwar fake would confer the top ace title for that calendar year to Günther Josten:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...379#post258379

Have a good Wednesday,

Michael

[Johannes]

Hi Michael

Hope I'm not proved wrong, but I believe both Joachim Brendel and Gunther Josten to have been honest, as Dahl's were not even dis-honest claims but post-war fictional claims, then Josten and Brendel would be tops.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Nick Hector]

Johannes, I am inclined to agree that Brendel and Josten were very good:

Guenther Josten

3rd claim
8.6.43/1913
IL-2 Sturmovik
Slobodan (PQ 54863) @ 200m
614 ShAP. Includes Kapitans A Smirnov, P Astapenko and A Kovgan, M/Lts P Varapayev, A Gamynin, V Kramar, N Chebotaryov, G Maltzev and A. Rezinkin, Lt. I Kosmachev, St. Serj E Saburov and Serj. G Sorokin. Orel-Mzensk

4th, 5th and 6th claims
10.6.43/1916, 1921 and 1925
3 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Bryansk airfield
62 and 312 ShAP. 62 ShAP lost Mladshiy Leytenants Anufriyev and Popov emergency landed back at base. 312 ShAP lost Mladshiy Leytenants Ivliyev and Komarovsky also emergency landed back at base

8th claim
10.7.43/1125
IL-2 Sturmovik
Eisenbahnknie Orel (PQ 63587) @ 300m
2 GShAD. Details pending

9th claim
10.7.43/1130
Pe-2
Eisenbahnknie Orel (PQ 53664) @ 400m
3 BAK. Details pending

10th claim
12.7.43/0546
IL-2 Sturmovik
Nowosil (PQ 63233) @ 200m
Day's IL-2 losses include Vasily Ivanovich Borzilov of 667 ShAP KIA

30th claim
3.8.43/1520
La-5FN ("LaGG-5")
PQ 54 445 @ low altitude
13 IAP, 201 IAD, 10 IAK, 2 VA. Overclaiming? No losses mentioned

37th claim
14.8.43/0600
IL-2 Sturmovik
Kharkov-Poltava (PQ 51847) @ 200m
66 ShAP, 2 VA. 4 losses. Details pending
(Oskar Romm claimed 2 and Wolfgang Ohl claimed 1 of the others)

63rd and 64th claims
7.9.43/1610
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Bagonova – Felipovo Railway
70 GShAP, Anwar Khamidovich Mustafin and Alexey Dmitrievich Zhitenev (both POW), pilot Zaichikov KIA but gunner Sergey Andreyevich Barlet baled out POW. Pilots Stukalin and Aliyev both failed to return. Mustafin died in captivity, Barlet later escaped

74th and 75th claims
15.9.43/1205 and 1250
2 x La-5s
Smolensk sector
1 VA or 240 IAD, 3 VA. 1 VA's La-5 losses include Ml.Lts . Petr Fedotovich Kovaletov, and Viktor Dmitrievich Semenov plus Lt. Ivan Vladimorovich Stadnichik and St.Serzhant Ivan Alekseevich Mironenko of 522 IAP, 215 IAD, 8 IAK all KIA

79th claim
17.9.43/1050
Pe-2
Rusinezy @ 2500m
1 VA or 3 VA. 587 BAP suffered KLAVDIYA "KLAVA" YAKOVLEVNA FOMICHEVA shot down WIA this date

81st claim
17.9.43/1350
La-5
Jselo @ lowest altitude
1 VA or 240 IAD, 3 VA. 1 VA's La-5 losses include Ml.Lt. Vasilii Ivanovich Vlasov of 522 IAP, 215 IAD, 8 IAK KIA

83rd and 84th claims
5.2.44/0900 and 0902
2 x Bostons
57 BAP. Losses include CO of 1AE, Ivan Ivanovich Steba and crew all KIA. Plus pilots Alexander Grigorievich Kalmykov (and crew KIA), Lt. Nikonov, Lt Rud (HSU, shot down for the 4th time), Lt. Gadyuchko and CO of 2AE, pilot named Yakshin

97th claim
26.6.44/1145
P-39 Airacobra
Was this St.Lt. Vladimir Georgevich Serov of 159 IAP KIA? One source says 68 IAP

106th claim
20.8.44/1240
IL-2 Sturmovik
570 ShAP, 231 ShAD, 2 ShAK definitely engaged by Fw190s this day but there appear to have been no losses. 618 ShAP lost crew of Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Grigorievich Shovkoplyas and Serzhant Nikolay Ivanovich Martynenko KIA this date

122nd claim
12.9.44/0921
P-39 Airacobra
Was this the Yak-3 of Podpolkovnik Alexei Borisovich Panov HSU, OL, 2 x ORB, Order of A Nievskii, OPW 1st class and ORS of 67 GIAP, KIA?

123rd claim
18.9.44/1345
B-17G-80-BO Flying Fortress
Warsaw area (PQ 03685) @ 3500m
One loss, from 568th BS, 390th BG: 43-38175 (was it named "I'll be seeing you"?) Lt. Francis E Akins and 7 others KIA, 1 POW and 1 evaded capture (Also claimed by Kurt Dombacher, slight overclaiming)

167th and 168th claims
22.4.45
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
S of Stettin
Were these from 47 ShAP? They lost Starshina Aleksei Timofeyevich Vasil'kov listed as KIA this date

--------------------------------------------------


Joachim Brendel

6.7.42/1925 MiG-3 Was this Lt. Stepan Ivanovich Tsarevskiy of 27 IAP KIA this date?

9.7.42/0420 MiG-3 Was this from 519 IAP? Lt. Nikolay Alexandrovich Smirnov (AE CO) KIA this date

18.1.43/0802, 0805 and 0809 3 x Pe-2s 2nd Eskadrilya, 202 BAP, 263 BAD, 1 BAK, 3 VA. Six losses: No. 6/115 of Lt. M V Orlov KIA, Lt. P G Slobodyan and Serzhant S I Filonchik baled out POW; crew of Serzhants P A Teplishchev, A I Golovlev and S E Vilkov; No.3/104 (Tail No.15) of Lt. B S Kardapoltsev, Mladshiy Leitenant A K Bondarenko and Serzhant A I Kozhbakov all baled out over Lake Karataj, one crewmen died on the way down and the others were KIA on the ground (in a gun battle with Germans trying to take them POW?) crew of Lt. Aleksandr Vasilyevich Shemyakin, Lt. N G Prikhodko Serzhant V F Pavlov (fate not specified) No. 19/104 (Tail No.18) of Serzhant A P Sozinov, Lt. T M Shapovalov and Serzhant V K Kalinichenko at least one crewman apparently evaded capture, other two KIA; crew of Serzhant Viktor Viktorovich Chirov, Ml. Lt. V T Gaevsky and Serzhant F I Mikheev (Jennewein claimed 5 as well)

9.3.43/0727 IL-2 Sturmovik 825 ShAP. This was likely Mayor Prokorov as he was first to go down. Bellylanded 8 km south of Zalegoshch, he returned to his unit on the 13.3.43

9.3.43/0732 IL-2 Sturmovik 825 ShAP. Other losses were S-t. Mikhail Aleksandrovich Kuznetsov, St. S-t. Vasiliy Ivanovich Ivlev, S-t. Egor Egorovich Ekimov and S-t. Aleksandr Vasil'evich Pomazkin all MIA (Klaus Dietrich claimed one and Guenther Schack claimed two)

6.5.43/1330 IL-2 Sturmovik 41 ShAP, 299 ShAD. 15 losses (remainder to flak, only one crew returned) (Herbert Epphardt claimed one, Josef Jennewein claimed 5)

7.5.43/0505 and 0515 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 58 and 79 GShAP, 2 GShAD (only 1 aircraft returned: Kapt Parshin and Snr Sgt Matveev crashed near Novosil). Known losses include Lt. Mingalev of 79 ShAP. Greatest losses to fighters appears to have been by 58 GShAP (Epphardt and Bareuther claimed two each)

28.5.43/1124 La-5 Known to be engaged against 160 IAP. I am awaiting further details on this one

8.6.43/1911 and 1912 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 614 ShAP. Includes Kapitans A Smirnov, P Astapenko and A Kovgan, M/Lts P Varapayev, A Gamynin, V Kramar, N Chebotaryov, G Maltzev and A. Rezinkin, Lt. I Kosmachev, St. Serj E Saburov and Serj. G Sorokin. Orel-Mzensk sector (Loeber, Josten and Ziegenfuss also claimed)

10.6.43/1937 Yak-1 122 IAP, two losses: Maj. Tzagojko damaged, bellylanded behind German lines and Mladshiy Leytenant Nepokrytov MIA/KIA. Additionally 162 IAP lost Starshin Seluka MIA/KIA as well. (These three losses are accounted for by Brendel, Schwarz and Haase’s claims)

6.7.43/0539 Boston III 8 GBAP, 57 BAP, 745 BAP/221 BAD of 16 VA (Central Front). 16 losses for the day 8 GBAP lost 7, 745 BAP lost 6 and 57 BAP lost 3 Bostons all up. 6 are attributed to fighters

7.7.43/0820 Boston III 745 BAP lost 3 Bostons this day and this was almost certainly one of them

9.7.43/0541 and 0544 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 299 ShAD. Ml.Lt. Gerasim Petrovich Zadorozhnyy was attacked by 7 Fw190s and there were other losses (I am awaiting further details…)

15.9.43/1705 Yak-9 1 VA or 240 IAD, 3 VA. Day's losses include Lt. Dmitriy Kudryavtsev of 86 GIAP KIA , Ml.Lt. Yurii Vasilievich Gromov of 263 IAP, 215 IAD, 8 IAK KIA. 149 IAP lost Evgenii Nikolaevich Klimov KIA (plenty of scope for this one to be a legitimate victory, therefore…)

17.9.43/1043 Pe-2 587 BAP suffered KLAVDIYA "KLAVA" YAKOVLEVNA FOMICHEVA shot down WIA this date (possibly by Brendel, Josten or Lindner)

12.10.43/1120 Yak-9 Morning's Yak-9 losses in Orsha sector include Ivan Chernii of 18 GIAP, 303 IAD, 1VA baled out after combat with Fw190s but KIA by German infantry (Brendel, Vechtel or Grumme likely shot him down)

13.10.43/0855 Pe-2 128 GBAP. 4 losses: Gv.Ml.Lt. Aleksey Pavlovich Simenskoy safe and Gds. St. Lt. Ivan Isaevich Prokorenko MIA (both attributed to Flak), Gv.Lts. Pavel Sergeevich Kukushkin (forcelanded WIA after fighter attack, POW a year later) and Alexei Kuzmich Barinov (POW, escaped 1944)

24.6.44/1036 IL-2 Sturmovik mH (Bareuther claimed one as well) 946 ShAP, 196 ShAD, 4 ShAK, 16 VA had an encounter with Fw190s this date, claiming one shot down for no losses. Do these claims actually pertain to that encounter?

30.6.44/1750 La-5 ("LaGG-5") Possibly 67 GIAP, 273 IAD, 6 IAK. Lt. V P Alekseev forcelanded WIA (Losigkeit and Wever also claimed La-5s during the course of the day, I haven’t managed to pin down the loss to a specific claim yet)

29.7.44/1005 Yak-9 Possibly Kapitan Vladimir Gerogievich Shchegolev (14 kills + 3 shared), HSU, OL, 3 x ORB and OPW 2nd Class of 162 IAP, KIA over Bialystok

14.8.44/1722 IL-2 Sturmovik mH Possibly Lt. Fyodor Ivanovich Rytov and Serzhant Andrey Egorovich Ershov of 618 ShAP, KIA near Augustow (Loeffler and Eichel-Streiber also claimed during the course of the day and again, I cannot pin the loss to a claim yet…)

20.8.44/1242 IL-2 Sturmovik mH The day’s combats are a little confusing here as well: 570 ShAP, 231 ShAD, 2 ShAK definitely engaged by Fw190s this day but there appear to have been no losses. 618 ShAP lost crew of Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Grigorievich Shovkoplyas and Serzhant Nikolay Ivanovich Martynenko KIA this date
25.8.44/0714 IL-2 Sturmovik mH Possibly 658 ShAP, 299 ShAD. Kapitan I P Smyshlyaka shot down and Mladshiy Leytenant N V Vichkapov damaged but made it home over Vyshkuva area. (Heinz Busse also claimed)

22.9.44/1027 A-20 Boston III 1 GMTAP VVS-KBF. Losses include St.Lt. Mark Ivanovich Zhilenkov KIA, Lt. Aleksandr Fedorovich Baranov, Lt. Thepermiaks (?), Gv.Ml.Lt. Mikhail Petrovich Permyakov and Ml.Lt. Sergei Petrovich Pudov all KIA (there were 4 other claims…)

20.2.45 Yak-3 Said to be from Groupe Normandie-Niemen, 1 VA. Lieutenant Pierre Bleton. POW, escaped and returned

[knusel]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Michael

Hope I'm not proved wrong, but I believe both Joachim Brendel and Gunther Josten to have been honest, as Dahl's were not even dis-honest claims but post-war fictional claims, then Josten and Brendel would be tops.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Good evening Johannes,

when did Brendel score his kill #156 ?

Cheers,

Michael