Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

[Johannes]

Hi Franek

I am not trying to discredit the Luftwaffe, they were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces. What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims, sometimes this evidence is the abschussemeldung which give about as much evidence as there is about an individual claim. Matching Allied loses to Luftwaffe claims shows there was overclaiming, usually the same individuals time and again. "Viermot" claims are to be treated differently, you didn't need to actually shoot the bomber down to make a claim, this would be a quirk of the points system.

My objective for asking about Eder is to establish the possibility about the "Twelve" jet claims always associated with him. It has been pointed out that the fifty days to acquire his jet kills has been with Karl's help(many thanks for that) been extended to eighty days.....a far more realistic time allowance. I asked about his honesty because I am no expert on that, but after the Walther Dahl saga I am a bit realistic to the possibility that what has been "fact" for seventy years might not actually be so. Fact is there is no flugbucher/abschussemeldung or abschusselist that shows evidence of Eder's claims, but that doesn't mean he didn't make them. With Erich Rudorffer we have the same twelve total of jet claims, only two were generally written about, yet after viewing his flugbuch (one of these wasn't correct) twelve proved to be the correct number, though they were later than expected.

My co-author John Foreman always said that if JG26 claimed they would match Allied loses very well, if JG 2 claimed not very well, if both claimed again not very well, but he would accept that it was JG2 not JG26 overclaiming.

Regarding been lost in another way, actually I am in agreement, in films made during the war British bombers were always reported as lost to flak, whereas the vast majority fell to fighters. Even a pilot being shot down may have been surprised and thought flak, yet could have been caught by a fighter.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Nick Hector]

Hi Johannes,

Your words:
The Luftwaffe, were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces.

There are plenty of instances of the Luftwaffe overclaiming as bad as any other airforce, and plenty of instances of other airforces claiming just as accurately as the Luftwaffe. Many publications from recent times deal with both sides of some of the various aerial campaigns the Luftwaffe was involved in. Suffice it to say, can we really continue to hold to the contention that the German "system" was ever so accurate?

On 15th February 1943 II./JG 2 encountered the US 1st and 82nd FGs and claimed an entire TEN victories over P-38 Lightnings. Of that ten victories EIGHT were confirmed by this "ever-so-fantastic" German confirmation system. NOT ONE SINGLE P-38 WENT DOWN IN THE ENGAGEMENT.
SOURCE: Focke Wulf 190 in North Africa by Andrew Arthy and Morten Jessen. pp. 108, 160-161

On 9th July 1944 II./JG 26 encountered 453 sqn RAAF over Normandy and Emil "Bully" Lang claimed 3 Spitfires shot down. All of them were confirmed by the "ever-so-rigid" German confirmation system but again, bugger-all were actually shot down.
SOURCES: JG 26 War Diary Part 2 by Donald Caldwell pp. 299-300
2nd Tactical Air Force Volume 2 pp. 212-213 by Christopher Shores and Chris Thomas.


Your words again:
What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims.

In the light of the above, the concept of "confirmed claims" is well and truly an utterly useless construct by now...

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

the concept of "confirmed claims" is well and truly an utterly useless construct by now...

It's a lot safer if you translate anerkannt as "recognised" or "accredited", I think.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Firstly Franek it is true that crash-sites were investigated, claims against the Russian's were usually behind enemy lines, so no chance there, with JG2 they claimed a lot over the sea, again not much chance to investigate there.

As Nick states Emil Lang was with JG26, yet still managed to overclaim. We(TOCH) had established that Lang had a couple of months of huge claims in Russia, this was worked with his rottenflieger Reinhold Hoffmann a pure case of each confirming the others claims.....mostly non-existant, yet another of Lang's rottenflieger Alfred Gross doesn't appear to have been part of this, when Hoffmann and Lang part company their claims became unspectacular! You would imagine that he would not be able to achieve such crimes with JG26, however he was with the Stab.II./JG26, and very possibly flew only with Alfred Gross, therefore able to maintain the deception within a generally honest Geschwader.


As Nick has established II./JG2 had a horrendous record of overclaiming in Afrika, but the JG26 as above......one man making the others look bad. The ever so fantastic claims system should work, but they didn't consider like minded abusers of the system, basically you couldn't do it alone.


As for the Luftwaffe being part of an evil regime, I should imagine that there was a higher percentage of hard-liners here than in the army, but most pilots were not like this and only wanted to get through the war, and many not to talk about it again. Wasn't Heinz Knoke shunned at reunions for his political views! Anyway TOCH is to talk about the Luftwaffe not Nazism., but I have noticed that hard-liners were very often the worst over-claimers.


regarding other Airforces overclaiming just check USAAF gunners claims 340 claims one day to Luftwaffe twenty loses, and what about Douglas Bader, seems every Nation has it's liars.

With Georg-Peter Eder all I am trying to establish is where the twelve jet kills data came from? As to his claims there pattern doesn't look like an overclaimers i.e huge numbers over a short period...….again opportunism with a corruptible rottenflieger, Eder seems not to have used a regular rottenflieger, and as Nick points-out III./JG2 was the least scoring of JG2's Gruppen……………….but unless expertly cross-examined I don't know the truth, and contrary to what you say claims are being cross-examined......by Nick for a start.


Kind Regards


Johannes

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Guys
Firstly Franek it is true that crash-sites were investigated, claims against the Russian's were usually behind enemy lines, so no chance there, with JG2 they claimed a lot over the sea, again not much chance to investigate there.

Overclaim over sea is higher not only because it is not possible to count wrecks but also because no crashsites are not visible, which makes assessment rather difficult. On the ground you could see crashsite, smoke, wreck, etc.

As Nick states Emil Lang was with JG26, yet still managed to overclaim. We(TOCH) had established that Lang had a couple of months of huge claims in Russia, this was worked with his rottenflieger Reinhold Hoffmann a pure case of each confirming the others claims.....mostly non-existant, yet another of Lang's rottenflieger Alfred Gross doesn't appear to have been part of this, when Hoffmann and Lang part company their claims became unspectacular! You would imagine that he would not be able to achieve such crimes with JG26, however he was with the Stab.II./JG26, and very possibly flew only with Alfred Gross, therefore able to maintain the deception within a generally honest Geschwader.

Can you prove that Lang intentionally produced fake combat reports?

As Nick has established II./JG2 had a horrendous record of overclaiming in Afrika, but the JG26 as above......one man making the others look bad. The ever so fantastic claims system should work, but they didn't consider like minded abusers of the system, basically you couldn't do it alone.

A lot depends on circumstances. New environment, enemy's numerical advantage, there are several reasons for overclaim. Before you call someone dishonest you must prove that he produced fake report in bad faith.

As for the Luftwaffe being part of an evil regime, I should imagine that there was a higher percentage of hard-liners here than in the army, but most pilots were not like this and only wanted to get through the war, and many not to talk about it again. Wasn't Heinz Knoke shunned at reunions for his political views! Anyway TOCH is to talk about the Luftwaffe not Nazism., but I have noticed that hard-liners were very often the worst over-claimers.

Despite post-war claims and allegations, no doubt due to requirements of the Cold War, Luftwaffe was considered quite a hard-core formation, and I do not see a pattern of Nazis and non-Nazis do not appearing together. I guess it was rather a matter of personal liking. And I do not see any reason to not to discuss such matters.

regarding other Airforces overclaiming just check USAAF gunners claims 340 claims one day to Luftwaffe twenty loses, and what about Douglas Bader, seems every Nation has it's liars.

There is no problem with overclaim itself. The problem is with your words. What is your evidence that USAAF gunners were liars, or that Bader was a liar? I mean intentional providing false reports on enemy losses.

With Georg-Peter Eder all I am trying to establish is where the twelve jet kills data came from? As to his claims there pattern doesn't look like an overclaimers i.e huge numbers over a short period...….again opportunism with a corruptible rottenflieger, Eder seems not to have used a regular rottenflieger, and as Nick points-out III./JG2 was the least scoring of JG2's Gruppen……………….but unless expertly cross-examined I don't know the truth, and contrary to what you say claims are being cross-examined......by Nick for a start.

I understand that, and and I am fully aware that a lot of bogus information are around, never supported by any evidence.
You cannot fully cross-check claims/victories vs losses without combat reports and narratives. Coincidence of time and place may be misleading. It is simple.

Best regards

Franek

[Franek Grabowski]

Johannes

Originally Posted by Johannes

I am not trying to discredit the Luftwaffe, they were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces. What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims, sometimes this evidence is the abschussemeldung which give about as much evidence as there is about an individual claim. Matching Allied loses to Luftwaffe claims shows there was overclaiming, usually the same individuals time and again. "Viermot" claims are to be treated differently, you didn't need to actually shoot the bomber down to make a claim, this would be a quirk of the points system.

I really do not care about reputation of Luftwaffe, an arm of a criminal regime. I rather mean that the statements are abusive to understanding the history. As yet nobody has done any comparison study of claims, credited victories and losses, and likely never will due to lack of documents. Therefore statement that Luftwaffe victories were more accurate than any other (or most of it) is just unfounded.

My objective for asking about Eder is to establish the possibility about the "Twelve" jet claims always associated with him. It has been pointed out that the fifty days to acquire his jet kills has been with Karl's help(many thanks for that) been extended to eighty days.....a far more realistic time allowance. I asked about his honesty because I am no expert on that, but after the Walther Dahl saga I am a bit realistic to the possibility that what has been "fact" for seventy years might not actually be so. Fact is there is no flugbucher/abschussemeldung or abschusselist that shows evidence of Eder's claims, but that doesn't mean he didn't make them. With Erich Rudorffer we have the same twelve total of jet claims, only two were generally written about, yet after viewing his flugbuch (one of these wasn't correct) twelve proved to be the correct number, though they were later than expected.

I understand the proper approach should be, what he claimed first, what has been initially verified, and what was finally credited. Only after that it is possible to check if any of those claims/victories match to any losses/combats. Aside, I am not sure if victories of so late period of the war were ever confirmed or approved.

My co-author John Foreman always said that if JG26 claimed they would match Allied loses very well, if JG 2 claimed not very well, if both claimed again not very well, but he would accept that it was JG2 not JG26 overclaiming.

As long as we do not know, how the verification process looked like and what were differences between JG 2 and JG 26 subordination in this regard, we cannot make such statements. My impression is, that intelligence officer quickly received a list of wrecks found, and then did a preliminary elimination of claims. Therefore JG 26 looks much better on paper, but we do not know the reality. We also do not know, how many of the victories were shared ones. Plus of course, JG 26 got credit for aircraft lost to another reason.

Regarding been lost in another way, actually I am in agreement, in films made during the war British bombers were always reported as lost to flak, whereas the vast majority fell to fighters. Even a pilot being shot down may have been surprised and thought flak, yet could have been caught by a fighter.

During the night all cats are grey. I am talking about day operations in large numbers. There are numerous instances of aircraft going down to technical reasons, collisions, friendly fire, flak and other. I did not do research for any large scale, selected combats only, so no general conclusion, but a statement of fact.

Best regards

Franek