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  #1  
Old 22nd November 2006, 02:48
marsyao marsyao is offline
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812Th IAP claimed for Hs 129 in Oct-Dec 1943

hi, Dénes, here is a list of 812Th IAP claimed for Hs 129 in Oct-Dec 1943 in the South Ukrain area list in Mr Antipov's "Dragons on Bird Wings", the Hs 129 units faced VVS in that area and in that time were Luftwaffe IV.(Pz)/SchlG 9 and FAAR Grupul 8 Asalt, could you tell me what was the accuacy of those claims, there is one problem here, besides 812th IAP, other VVS IAPs also could claimed shot down Hs 129 at that time:

Lt Ivan Fedorov claimed one Hs 129 shot down at 9:35 10/23/43 at Northwest of Akimovka as his 11th victories

Lt Vasiliy Shishkin claimed one Hs 129 shot down at 9:45 10/23/43 at West of Vladimirovka as his 3rd victories

Ml Lt Ivan Maksimov claimed one Hs 129 shot down (Hs 129B-2 of Fw Jochim Bannier, 10.(Pz)/SchlG 9 ?) at 1310-1358 10/25/43 at 10km west of Akimovka as his 4th victories

Cap Pavel Tarasov claimed one Hs 129 shot down at 9:00-10:00 10/25/43 at Nizhniye Serogozy as his 20th victories

Cap Yegor Ankudinov claimed one Hs 129 shot down at 12/31/43 over Bolshaya Kostromka airfield as his 6th victories
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Old 22nd November 2006, 10:52
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: 812Th IAP claimed for Hs 129 in Oct-Dec 1943

I ordered "Dragons on Bird Wings" from Aviaeology mostly for the details on claims against Hs 129s.

Here's what I have regarding the claims list you quoted:

>>Lt Ivan Fedorov claimed one Hs 129 shot down at 9:35 10/23/43 at Northwest of Akimovka as his 11th victories:
>>Lt Vasiliy Shishkin claimed one Hs 129 shot down at 9:45 10/23/43 at West of Vladimirovka as his 3rd victories

There were two losses for that day, both North of Losowatka:

23-Oct-43 Hs 129B-2 140748 Uffz. Albert Frankenstein 14.(Pz)/Schl.G. 9 KIA Rußland North of Losowatka Bruch 100%
23-Oct-43 Hs 129B-2 140759 Fw. Joachim Maciejewski 13.(Pz.)/Schl.G. 9 MIA Rußland North of Losowatka Bruch 100%

>>Ml Lt Ivan Maksimov claimed one Hs 129 shot down (Hs 129B-2 of Fw Jochim Bannier, 10.(Pz)/SchlG 9 ?) at 1310-1358 10/25/43 at 10km west of Akimovka as his 4th victories
>>Cap Pavel Tarasov claimed one Hs 129 shot down at 9:00-10:00 10/25/43 at Nizhniye Serogozy as his 20th victories

There were two ARR Hs 129s lost on 25 October, which crash landed due to flak fire West of Eigenfeld, one East of Kuibyschewo, while the other one in Pl.Qu. 47293:

25-Oct-43 Hs 129B-2 140739 8.Rum.Schl.Gr. Notlandung Rußland Pl.Qu. 47293 Bruch 100%
25-Oct-43 Hs 129B-2 141239 8.Rum.Schl.Gr. Notlandung Rußland East of Kuibyschewo Bruch 100%

>>Cap Yegor Ankudinov claimed one Hs 129 shot down at 12/31/43 over Bolshaya Kostromka airfield as his 6th victories.

No matching loss for that day, or that week.

I would like to know if the places quoted in the Soviet and German/Rumanian documents are close to each other, so the claims could be confirmed.
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Old 22nd November 2006, 17:24
marsyao marsyao is offline
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Re: 812Th IAP claimed for Hs 129 in Oct-Dec 1943

Yes, if possible we shall check the location and time of those claims agains German-Rumania records, but we also should consider that even 812th's claims matched German-Rumania loss records, other VVS fighter regiments and/or Soviet flak unit may also make claims for Hs 129s at the same time and the same location, so in most case it was not possible be sure that who shot down whom in an air combat
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Old 22nd November 2006, 19:59
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: 812Th IAP claimed for Hs 129 in Oct-Dec 1943

Very well said, Marsyao. It's an often made error that as soon as there is an seemingly matching claim and loss data, despite possible location and date differences, an erroneous conclusion is being drawn about the 'victor' and his 'victim', without other possible sources being considered in order to obtain a hasty result.
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Old 22nd November 2006, 21:00
marsyao marsyao is offline
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Re: 812Th IAP claimed for Hs 129 in Oct-Dec 1943

Made one error, actually Cap Pavel Tarasov did not claimed a Hs 129 on Oct 25, 1943, he claimed one on Oct 28, so the correct record should be
Cap Pavel Tarasov claimed one Hs 129 shot down at 9:00-10:00 10/28/43 at Nizhniye Serogozy as his 20th victories

Was there any Hs 129 lost on Oct 28 43 ? and by the way, on the same day, Ml Lt Ivan Maksimov who just claimed a Hs 129 3 days before, was shot down and killed by Bf-109 after he achieved his 5th kills, a Ju 87D, possibly from I//Schl.G
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Old 22nd November 2006, 22:55
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: 812Th IAP claimed for Hs 129 in Oct-Dec 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by marsyao View Post
Was there any Hs 129 lost on Oct 28 43 ?
I have no information on any Hs 129 lost on 28 October (only 26 and 30 October).
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Old 23rd November 2006, 00:24
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Re: 812Th IAP claimed for Hs 129 in Oct-Dec 1943

I have checked the book "HS129 Panzerjager" by Martin Pegg. He had the attack of Oct 23, 1943 listed with the confirmation of 3 victories in the Danielo-Ivanovka area. Listing a HS129 for Fiodorov, Shiskin and Maksimov. Oct 25 has a HS129 shot down by Lt. Maksimenko 3KM west of Akimovka. In the lost table it has only for the 23rd, 8./Rum. Sch. Gr (W.Nr.141271), 13.(Pz)/Sch.G.9 (W.Nr. 140759) and 14./Sch.G.9 (W.Nr 140748). 25th has two 8./Rum. Sch.Gr destroyed. The ones on the 23rd has listing as hit by AA fire. The 25th has destroyed by own troops on emergency landing E. of Kuibyshevo. There is also a listing for the 28Dec43 Fl.U.G. 1 Uffz. Helmut Schuttler crashed and killed at Strichovka. 100% destroyed (No cause). Hope it helps.
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Old 23rd November 2006, 02:15
marsyao marsyao is offline
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Re: 812Th IAP claimed for Hs 129 in Oct-Dec 1943

Thanks ! and it was also interesting to know that in the most part of 1943, the average operational aicrafts strength of 812th IAP were around 10, theoritically a VVS IAP should be equal to a Luftwaffe Gruppen, but it looks like here 812th IAP had less aircrafts than a Luftwaffe Staffeln !
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Old 28th November 2006, 02:46
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Re: 812Th IAP claimed for Hs 129 in Oct-Dec 1943

Marsyao, I haven't ordered "Dragons on Bird Wings" yet because of the price. How good is it? Do the 812 IAP victories have a comparsion with Luftwaffe losts and vice versa with there losses. Does it give a non bias story in the text?
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Old 28th November 2006, 04:42
marsyao marsyao is offline
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Re: 812Th IAP claimed for Hs 129 in Oct-Dec 1943

Nokose, I would recommand this book, it was well researched and written, though it did not have a one-to-one claims vs real losses comparision, basically similiar to Jochin Prien's Luftwaffe unit history
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