Part from P-51B of P-51D?

[Cees Steijger]

Hi, the photograph shows a bracket for the hydraulic hand pump support in the fuselage. The part number is 102-58607. It was found in Lake Wolderwijd, former lake IJsselmeer aka Zuiderzee. Most logical is that the part is from P-51D 44-13411 334FS/4FG which crashed on 20 November 1944 in the lake: several parts of that machine have been found and most part of the plane was salvaged in 1970. According to the Parts Catalog 01-60JD-4 of 1 June 1944 the bracket is from a P-51 B-model.. The Parts Catalog from the P-51D doesn't mention this part...who can clarify?

[RSwank]

The P-51D did not have the hand hydraulic pump.

Here is a video which gets into a cockpit tour of a P-51B. At the 3:35 point, the narrator points out the hand pump and comments that the P-51D did not have one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVWtL77f12c

You can also look at page 5 of the P-51D manual
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...l-5april44.pdf

It notes that "No emergency hydraulic hand pump is provided."

[Crimea River]

Part 102-58607 shows up in the P-51B Parts Catalogue and is item 4 in the attached figure.

[Cees Steijger]

Originally Posted by RSwank

The P-51D did not have the hand hydraulic pump.

Here is a video which gets into a cockpit tour of a P-51B. At the 3:35 point, the narrator points out the hand pump and comments that the P-51D did not have one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVWtL77f12c

You can also look at page 5 of the P-51D manual
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...l-5april44.pdf

It notes that "No emergency hydraulic hand pump is provided."

Thanks for the confirmation! That actually means that there is an unknown P-51B in lake Woldewijd. The information I got was that 'a fighter' was discovered during dredging work - the wrackage was marked. No further info. --Cees

[Cees Steijger]

Originally Posted by Crimea River

Part 102-58607 shows up in the P-51B Parts Catalogue and is item 4 in the attached figure.

Thanks for this. Can we exclude that early models P-51D were modified with a handpump?

[RSwank]

According to Joe Baugher's site:

44-13411 (4th FG, 334th FS) in midair collision over Zuider Zee, Holland Nov 20, 1944. MACR 10535. Wreckage recovered 1970; Zuid-Flevoland

and

44-13615 (4th FG, 334th FS) in midair collison over Zuider Zee, Holland Nov 20, 1944. MACR 10536. Parts recovered 1978; Veluwemeer.

Did they collide with each other? Both are model: North American P-51D-5-NA

[Cees Steijger]

Originally Posted by RSwank

According to Joe Baugher's site:

44-13411 (4th FG, 334th FS) in midair collision over Zuider Zee, Holland Nov 20, 1944. MACR 10535. Wreckage recovered 1970; Zuid-Flevoland

and

44-13615 (4th FG, 334th FS) in midair collison over Zuider Zee, Holland Nov 20, 1944. MACR 10536. Parts recovered 1978; Veluwemeer.

Did they collide with each other? Both are model: North American P-51D-5-NA

Yes they did. This incident is well documented. Actually, currently writing the book 'Frankie' about 44-13411 - pilot Werner MIA, never found. What makes this part found in the lake nearby the crash site of 44-13411 so interesting is that it is from a B-model....According to the Dutch crash register only one P-51B ever crashed in the lake. That was 43-12485 of 354FG/353FS. But that one crashed some 60 kilometers north of the location where the part was found. Was the P-51D-5NA variant different and did it have the hand pump installed? --Cees

[SteveB]

In the version of the P-51D/K parts catalogue that I have the hydraulic hand pump and associated parts are clearly listed and illustrated...the pump assembly is 106/109-580241. Two parts "Angle assembly - hydraulic hand pump mounting RH & LH" are listed 106-58737 and -1.

Steve

[Cees Steijger]

Originally Posted by SteveB

In the version of the P-51D/K parts catalogue that I have the hydraulic hand pump and associated parts are clearly listed and illustrated...the pump assembly is 106/109-580241. Two parts "Angle assembly - hydraulic hand pump mounting RH & LH" are listed 106-58737 and -1.

Steve

Yes I saw that too. But the part nr. 102-58607 is not mentioned. Actually I read numerous publications that state the P-51D had no hand pump...for instance here: https://books.google.nl/books?id=MsP...0P-51D&f=false

It seems a hard nut to crack...

[RSwank]

I am beginning to wonder if the sequence of events could be as follows. The first models of the P-51D did not have a hand pump. The hand pump was used in earlier P-51 models to move the flaps.

This quote is from P-51 pilots check list: http://www.aerofiles.com/checklist-p51.html


"There is NO emergency wing flap operation provided on the P-51D, as the hand pump has been eliminated. On all earlier models of the P-51, put flap selector to desired position and operate the hand pump until it seizes. Flaps will be in desired position and will stay there until another selection is made."

Suppose that then field modifications (perhaps not "official") were made to install the Model B hand pump in the Model D because of pilot demand.

Next, at some point, the hand pump (now with model D numbers) was added back to the model D and K P-51 construction as Steve B's parts catalog seems to show.

There is also a "late" version of the P-51 D/K parts catalog that can be downloaded from here:

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/thread...catalog.50278/

What is interesting is the section on the "hand pump" (now called part number 109-580243 which supersedes part number 106/109-580241) has a notation that the hand pump will come wrapped in felt and is stowed as loose equipment. It will not be factory installed.

I would appear that the AAF went "back and forth" on whether the hand pump should be in the model D/K. Finally they just made it "optional" and included a pump that could be field installed if desired.

If this theory is correct, it would appear that the Model B pump bracket that was found was part of the Model D that crashed. It seems unlikely there also is a complete "P-51B" at the same crash site.