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  #1  
Old 23rd December 2012, 13:00
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?

7 July 1941, a major air battle in the area of ​​the river Dvina. The Russians have lost at least 10 SB. Probably they were attacked by JG 54 pilots?

Does anyone have information on this battle: the time, the number of reported victories by JG 54?

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mirekw
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Old 24th December 2012, 18:53
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?

07-Jul-41, Hptm., Franz, Eckerle, II., 6., JG 54, DB-3, -, 06.46, 13., 316, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Werner, Dieball, II., 6., JG 54, DB-3, -, 06.48, 1., 317, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Hubert, Mütherich, II., 5., JG 54, I-18, -, 06.58, 19., 318, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Hans, Schmoller-Haldy, I., 3., JG 54, SB-3, 10km südwestlich Seledna, 07.55, 4., 116, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Helmut, Zilken, III., 9., JG 54, SB-3, -, 07.56, 7., 235, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 91 988/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Karl-Heinz, Bornemann, I., 3., JG 54, SB-3, -, 07.58, 2., 117, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 91 937/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Gerhard, Lautenschläger, I., 3., JG 54, SB-3, -, 08.00, 1., 118, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Helmut, Zilken, III., 9., JG 54, SB-3, -, 08.00, 8., 236, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 91 988/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Arnold, Lignitz, III., Stab III., JG 54, SB-3, -, 08.02, 23., 237, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 91 983/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Gerhard, Koall, III., Stab III., JG 54, SB-3, -, 08.02, 4., 238, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 91 983/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Georg, Ruland, I., 3., JG 54, SB-3, -, 08.06, ., 119, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 91 937/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Gerhard, Lautenschläger, I., 3., JG 54, SB-3, -, 08.08, 2., 120, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 91 937/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Werner, Nelte, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, -, 10.30, 1., 121, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Hptm., Reinhard, Seiler, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, nordöstlich Ostrow, 10.31, 10., 122, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 69 928/41, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Ogefr., Werner, Opalke, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, -, 10.33, 2., 123, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Hans, Beißwenger, II., 6., JG 54, SB-3, -, 10.55, 9., 319, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Josef, Pöhs, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, -, 10.56, 17., 320, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Hubert, Mütherich, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, -, 10.57, 20., 321, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Hubert, Mütherich, II., 5., JG 54, RZ, -, 10.58, 21., 322, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Hptm., Reinhard, Seiler, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, Ostrow, 11.00, 11., 124, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 69 928/41, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Hermann, Leiste, III., 7., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.35, 5., 239, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Ogefr., Heinz, Wrontzki, III., 7., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.36, 1., 240, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Hermann, Leiste, III., 7., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.37, 6., 241, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Ogefr., Bernhard, Wrontzki, III., 7., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.38, 2., 242, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 91 984/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Günther, Scholz, III., 7., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.40, 15., 243, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Wilhelm, Süwolto, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.41, ., 125, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Günther, Scholz, III., 7., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.41, 16., 244, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Fw., Hans, Clausen, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.42, 3., 126, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Karl, Kaufhold, I., 1., JG 54, SB-2, -, 15.43, ., 127, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Hptm., Franz, Eckerle, II., 6., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.50, 14., 323, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Hans, Götz, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, -, 16.00, 6., 128, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 91 934/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Wolfgang, Späte, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, nordöstlich Ostrow, 18.55, 11., 324, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Hubert, Mütherich, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, nordöstlich Ostrow, 18.55, 22., 325, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Friedrich, Zander, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, nordwestlich Ostrow, 18.57, 5., 326, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Gerhard, Ludwig, I., 2., JG 54, SB-3, -, 19.05, ., 129, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Fw., Karl, Fuchs, I., 2., JG 54, I-26, -, 19.06, 3., 130, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Gefr., Peter, Bremer, I., 2., JG 54, SB-3, -, 19.07, 1., 131, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Gefr., Rudolf, Gerecke, I., 2., JG 54, SB-3, -, 19.08, 2., 132, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Fw., Karl, Fuchs, I., 2., JG 54, I-16 Rata, 20km nordöstlich Ostrow, 19.12, 4., 133, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Hptm., Reinhard, Seiler, I., 1., JG 54, I-18, nördlich Ostrow, 19.15, 12., 134, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 69 928/41, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Günter, Range, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, -, 19.25, 1., 327, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Josef, Pöhs, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, Ostrow/Dünaburg, 19.40, 18., 328, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Ofw., Bruno, Preuß, I., 3., JG 54, R-5, -, 20.48, ., 135, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 289/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Gerhard, Lautenschläger, I., 3., JG 54, I-15, -, 20.50, 3., 136, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 91 937/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Gefr., Paul, Breitling, I., 3., JG 54, I-18, 4km südlich Porchow, 20.53, ., 137, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Gerhard, Lautenschläger, I., 3., JG 54, I-18, -, 20.55, 4., 138, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
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  #3  
Old 25th December 2012, 09:30
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?

Thanks, it is quite many, :-)
It was 10 SB total lost from 35. SBAP of 4. SAD which took off from Staraya Russa

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mirekw
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:41
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?

Mirek,

Do you have any other details about the battle?

Time. Damaged AC etc?

Thanks,

Rob Romero
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  #5  
Old 27th December 2012, 14:17
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?

According vicotries I would like to find this too, but it was a very good day for JG 54. And many vicotries. So this is not so easy to match it.

It was 10 total lost SB from 35. SBP of 4.SAD in the Dvinsk area (river Dvina, only 2 had retured to base. Due to other combat in this area and planty of victories of JG 54 it is some problems to decide, which planes were shot down from this regiment.

mw
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Old 27th December 2012, 18:11
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?

Mirek, no time for the combat?

Rob
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  #7  
Old 27th December 2012, 18:18
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?

Pity, but no, whole day!
mw
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Old 27th December 2012, 19:57
mars mars is offline
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Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?

Does that mean 40 something claims vs 10 real losses? Do you have anything about Russian figher losses?
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Old 28th December 2012, 05:03
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?

Rob, Mirek,

Have a look at the claims timed between about 1530 and 1600. I think those pertain to the 35 SBAP losses because they are the most numerous.

I know that's a fairly weak argument but if you compare the timings of the different pilots' claims you come up with...
A couple of claims around 7am, the same an hour later, similar around 1030 - all of which seem too few to match with 35 SBAP's losses.
Then you have a whole swag in the 1530-1600 "timeslot" as mentioned above.

The other possibility is the evening raid from 1855 onward, but at that time they were claiming DB-3s and having just enough faith in the Jagdflieger's aircraft identification skills, I would say all the SBs mentioned around 1530-

Nick
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Old 28th December 2012, 09:06
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?

I have never said that agains 40 claims's JG 54 were only 10 losses! No way.
The whole formation had 12 only planes, they flown in 2 formations of 6. One of them was totaly destroyed (all 6) second 4 of 6, means 10.

There were of course other combats on 7.07, I think so. The time of victories show them. It was important area and Soviet would like to break the supply chain (bridges) on Dzwina and stop the motorise units.

Sorry, what kind of Soviet's fighters in this are? I do not know f there were over Dzwina any? Second the bases were quite far about 300 km away.

Nick, I think that it was after 12.00 a.m., but I do not know for sure too.

mw
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