Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East

Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East Please use this forum to discuss the Air War in the Far East.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10th September 2006, 12:27
CJE's Avatar
CJE CJE is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bordeaux (France)
Posts: 1,409
CJE
Who got Saburo Sakai?

According to most sources, including H. Sakaida, it is a Harold I. Jones (no rank given).
According to Frank Olynyk's air victories list #2, it should rather be AMM 2/c H. H. Caruthers of VS-5, the only rear gunner of a SBD to claim a "kill" that very day.
All sources agree to say that the rear gunner was flying with Lt Carl H. Horenburger. But... most of them post Horenburger with VB-6, while he actually was with VS-5.
Any idea?
Thanks.
Chris
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 14th September 2006, 04:59
fsbofk fsbofk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 212
fsbofk is on a distinguished road
Re: Who got Saburo Sakai?

As noted in Bombing Six's "Report of Action" submitted for 7 August 1942, Flight 319 launched from USS Enterprise at 1217 and landed 1517 hours, and included Lt. C. H. Horenburger and AMM2c H. H. Caruthers flying in 5-S-12. According to Sakaida, Saburo Sakai was wounded during his and his wingman's attack against this flight. Further in the Report, it states that Flight 330 launched at 1559 and landed 1906 hours, and included Lt. Horenburger and AMM2c Caruthers again, this time in 6-B-13. Despite the apparent use of VS-5 aircraft during their encounter with Sakai, it would appear that, based on their inclusion in the Bombing Six report, both men were assigned to VB-6.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 14th September 2006, 07:42
CJE's Avatar
CJE CJE is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bordeaux (France)
Posts: 1,409
CJE
Re: Who got Saburo Sakai?

So I was half right. It's Caruthers and not Jones.
I did not think that VS-5 and VB-6 were on same carrier. Was it "Enterprise"?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 14th September 2006, 16:24
drgondog's Avatar
drgondog drgondog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 892
drgondog is on a distinguished road
Re: Who got Saburo Sakai?

Didn't Sakai state in his recollection of the encounter that he thought he was attacking Wildcats, hence the 6 O'clock approach - and was supprised by the rear gunner in a TBF?

<scratching head> I guess I'll have to go look and see if 40 year memory serves

Regards,

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 14th September 2006, 18:32
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,074
Leo Etgen is on a distinguished road
Who got Saburo Sakai?

Hi guys

Indeed, according to his recollection of this engagement in Zero by Okumiya and Horikoshi, Sakai mentions that he mistook the American aircraft for fighters (no specific type mentioned) and thus attempted a below and behind attack as he had done three times before when he claimed at least two victories in each attack. He mentions that the American formation closed ranks as he approached which he interpreted as them not seeing him (if they were fighters they would have loosed formation). He then states that he belatedly noticed that they were TBF torpedo bombers and had run into a trap. I hope this helps somewhat and interesting post.

Horrido!

Leo
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 22nd June 2019, 04:02
SkipGuidry SkipGuidry is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4
SkipGuidry is on a distinguished road
Re: Who got Saburo Sakai?

SBDs, not TBFs.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 14th July 2019, 03:22
R Leonard R Leonard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 106
R Leonard is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Who got Saburo Sakai?

TBFs were a figment of Martin Caiden's imagination.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11th August 2019, 17:24
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,074
Leo Etgen is on a distinguished road
Who got Saburo Sakai?

Hello

It's unbelievable that someone would falsify history like that... I keep wondering what was the point? The human mind is very strange at times!

Horrido!

Leo
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11th August 2019, 19:19
ghostwriter's Avatar
ghostwriter ghostwriter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Southwest-Germany
Posts: 128
ghostwriter is on a distinguished road
Post Re: Who got Saburo Sakai?

hello,

how good is this biography of wikipedia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saburō_Sakai

does it correspond to reality?

thank you & best regards
ghostwriter
__________________
I won't let you dig around in my brain, I won't let you steal my little show!? dr. koch - "1984"
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12th August 2019, 00:36
Edward Edward is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 47
Edward is on a distinguished road
Re: Who got Saburo Sakai?

Well, parts of the wikipedia biography involving combat are not very good.

Sakai being badly wounded on 7 August 1942 near Guadalcanal and sent to Japan for medical treatment saved him from the fate of many of his comrades from the Tainan Air Group who died over the ensuing weeks flying long range missions against the Marine and Navy Wildcat pilots

Like many veterans Sakai exaggerated his own accomplishments while taking credit for the victories of his deceased colleagues (Sakai was not credited in Tainan records for the shootdown of Colin Kelly's B-17).

The story of the three Tainan pilots flying acrobatics over Port Moresby is pure fantasy. There is not one iota of evidence for this aerial display having taken place in any Australian or U.S. records.

I could go on but safe to say people like to read these exaggerated stories and they sell books. Caidin made up a lot of stories about Sakai but the Japanese pilot had his own problems with the truth. Until there is an exact English language translation of Sakai's original memoir it will be impossible to separate the two.

Saburo Sakai led an amazing life as a Navy pilot. His flying ability and tenacity were amply demonstrated in the skies over Guadalcanal and Iwo Jima.

One day someone will write an accurate biography on Sakai based on Japanese and U.S. wartime records. That is not to say that plenty of authors haven't written accurate accounts (in English - I certainly don't read Japanese) of Sakai's combats free from hyperbole. See books by Bill Bartsch, Anthony Cooper, and Bruce Gamble.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:42.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net