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  #21  
Old 27th April 2018, 21:19
Rasmussen Rasmussen is offline
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Re: A mysterious Bordbuch and unknown St.Kz. and Wnr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Willis View Post
Now I recently had an email from Tony Jones and he says that from mid 1944 entries in Flugbuchs etc were to scrambled and made up so that if these were captured would not be of use to Allied Intelligence in their use of captured Stkn/W/Nr to give accurate details of aircraft production.
I find this idea interesting and perplexing at the same time. I know that Stkz and W/Nr blocks were often split and mixed up to confuse Allied Intelligence but this is the first time that I have heard of this order or practice of doing the same with Flugbuchs but with made up information.
It wouldn't be easier to write nothing ... only a type, no Stkn/W.Nr. ... with the same effect? An good idea from Tony Jones but...
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  #22  
Old 27th April 2018, 22:57
Gerhard Gerhard is offline
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Re: A mysterious Bordbuch and unknown St.Kz. and Wnr.

Hi,

>> Now I recently had an email from Tony Jones and he says that from mid 1944 entries in Flugbuchs etc were to scrambled ...

Initially, when seeing the Funke Flugbuch, I had a similiar idea, but I didn't dare to speak it out.

Question 1:
Are other Flugbuchs known showing similiar "silly" entries from mid-1944 on?

Question2:
As Rasmussen says: "It wouldn't be easier to write nothing ... only a type, no Stkn/W.Nr. ... with the same effect?"
Yes, but as type, Stkz and Wnrs WERE written down, so there must be some point in doing so.

I assume that these data were not pure fake, but were coded in some way; in other words: there probably was an algorithm to convert the true data into the scrambled data. So we "simply" have to find the algorithm to re-convert the scrambled data back to the true data.

For a start:
Line #34: Ju 52 KS+HO Wnr 7275
- the true Stkz for 7275 was TG+EO (ASSUMING the Wnr in the Flugbuch is correct)
- to make things even more difficult, a photo exists showing TG+EO in a considerably damaged state probably somewhere in Russia, plus Wnr 7275 clearly readable on the tail.
So it is either unlikely that Wnr 7275 still was in operation in mid-1944 *OR* Wnr 7275 actually had been repaired and had a test flight as described in Funke's Flugbuch: "Zweck des Fluges": "Belastungsflug" (Purpose of flight: test flight to check out loads) to verify that it was fit to fly again.
Thus we don't know for sure whether only the Stkz was scrambled or both the Stkz and the Wnr.
And even if only the Stkz was scrambled, we don't yet know the algorithm.

Now similiar checks should be done for all other entries from line #26 onwards. Volunteers?

Gerhard
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  #23  
Old 27th April 2018, 23:48
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Re: A mysterious Bordbuch and unknown St.Kz. and Wnr.

Hi,


I do not wish to add to the confusion, but this Bordbuch is indeed unusual. Some type of code key appears possible. However, if it was a company code, it may have used something called a "one time pad." The user had one page and the receiver (company) had the other page to decipher the first. These pages were usually used once and destroyed, leading to other pages being used on other dates. The "code cracking" may be complicated by this.



Best,
Ed
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  #24  
Old 28th April 2018, 09:11
lilsis lilsis is offline
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Re: A mysterious Bordbuch and unknown St.Kz. and Wnr.

JU52 7275 TG+EO 09.03.1943 Absturz bei Schauden infolge eines Bedienungsfehler (Bruch 80%)

a lot of flights begin in Köthen, at this place there was a Schul- und Versuchsabteilung (Funkpeilanlagen, Versuchsanlage Heinrich VI ), Junkers-Motorenwerke, too

oooo, flight 49 end up with a notlandung.

Last edited by lilsis; 28th April 2018 at 09:50.
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  #25  
Old 28th April 2018, 14:05
Marcel Hogenhuis's Avatar
Marcel Hogenhuis Marcel Hogenhuis is offline
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Re: A mysterious Bordbuch and unknown St.Kz. and Wnr.

Hello,

For what it is worth (the German nightfighter units may have followed another procedure) but I really doubt whether the entries in Flugbücher have been scrambled in order to confuse Allied intelligence. I am pretty sure that NO single Flugbuch of I./NJG 1 pilots and Bordfunker has 'scambled' entries at all, unless someone has taken the effort to make an altered, handwritten copy after the war in a brand new Flugbuch (:-)

Another objection against this idea is that the input (scrambling) is hardly worth the output (secrecy): finding a German wreck - more likely than finding still intact Flugbücher - would soon reveal that the entries don't match with Werkenummer plates and/or already known Verbandskennzeichen.

I also never have seen any documents in which an intelligence service is franticly trying to postulate the aircraft production of the enemy by thorough investigation of flight logs or Flugbücher. I am not suggesting that these services took no interest in these numbers but there are other (and perhaps more conclusive) ways of getting that information.

In this forum there are far more experts with knowledge about German flight logs to add further comments about the interesting theory that somewhere in 1944 Flugbücher had to be scrambled.

Best regards, Marcel
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