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  #1  
Old 3rd July 2012, 09:38
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Günther Josten 1945 claims

Hi Guys
I always believed that Josten's flightbook survived the war. I seem to have all his 1945 claims details, but it just does not add-up. He is known to have twenty-five unconfirmed claims to add to his largely accepted 178 confirmed. My 1945 claims unfortunately come from various sources, a few are fact, others suspect. Can anybody please sort these out:-

16th January 1945 a Il-2(nr.140) and a P-39(nr.141) South-East of Libau,,,these two would seem to fit his proflie well.

17th January 1945 a La-5(nr.142) South-West of Ziechenau

11th February 1945 three Il-2's(nr.143-145) South-East of Heiligenbeil

16th February 1945 five Il-2's(nr.146-150) North-East of Graudenz....these also seem to fit his profile well!

17th February 1945 two Il-2's in the Braunberg area......I would say these are suspect!

19th February 1945 two Il-2's North-West of Neuenberg.......again suspect!

20th February 1945 firstly two boston's, then two P-39's East of Danzig(Gdansk)......again suspect!

5th March 1945 a Il-2 near Dirschau.......again suspect!

9th March 1945 firstly a boston at 1200 hrs in the Danzig/Langfuhr area, then a La-5 near Dirschau.........I think these are very suspect as the KBT documents would seem(unless I./JG51 temporarly leaves this area) to omit these, as with that for 5th March 1945 although covered by the KBT documents!

10th March 1945 two boston's at 1212hrs(nr.154) and 1215hrs(nr.155), and a LaGG-3 at 1242hrs(nr.156)....FACT, these appear on the KBT documents, and are even numbered 154-156!, and strangely my source has no crash sites for these, but for the others, which makes me think perhaps that the other 1945 claims are made-up perhaps!

11th March 1945 an Il-2 in the Danzig/Langfuhr area.

15th March 1945 a La-5 in the Danzig area.

18th March 1945 a Jak-3 at Heiligenbeil.

19th March 1945 firstly a Boston at 1200hrs in the Danzig/Langfuhr are, then an Il-2 in the Danzig area.

22nd March 1945 two unidentified aircraft in the Pillau area......these seem suspect just because they are unidentified!

3rd April 1945 an Il-2 in the Danzig area.

7th April 1945 two Il-2's.

19th april 1945 an Il-2 near Strausberg.

22nd April 1945 Two Il-2's South of Stettin.

25th April 1945 firstly a Jak-3, then three Il-2's, then a P-39, then two Boston's, then another two Il-2's...........suspect, Ernst Obermeier states seven(and his biography is largely correct upto this point) Nr-172-178) so probably two have been duplicated.

26th April 1945 a Yak-3 North-West of Berlin.....again suspect if Obermeier's Nr-172-178 is correct.

Of course it could be that Josten had more than 178 confirmation's, but it does seem unlikely, also he does appear to be an honest claimer. Obermeier was correct with his assumption that Josten got his Ritterkreuz for 84 confirmations, so there is no reason to doubt his claim that the Eichenlaub was axquired for 161 confirmations.

Grateful for your comments on this.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 3rd July 2012, 20:56
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: Günther Josten 1945 claims

Have you seen this recently published book? Günther Josten: Gefechtsbericht, Braatz, Kurt/Göbel, Wilhelm, NeunundzwanzigSechs Verlag, 3-9811615-7-1. It's essentially A transcription of Josten's war diary with claim lists, units, ranks etc. My copy is with a friend at present.

Last edited by Jim P.; 3rd July 2012 at 20:57. Reason: book title added
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Old 4th July 2012, 10:04
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Günther Josten 1945 claims

Thanks Jim

I'll try to buy a copy.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 5th July 2012, 20:31
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Nokose Nokose is offline
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Re: Günther Josten 1945 claims

Johannes, What is it that you find "suspect" about the claims? Is it the source. I've tried to determine for years now which unit shot down the 5 "Bostons" of the 57 BAP who made a raid on Stargrad on the 19Feb45.
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Old 7th July 2012, 08:12
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Günther Josten 1945 claims

Hi

Nothing against Josten, he was an honest claimer, but there are eleven claims listed in a period where there's only room for three!....could be these are assumptions, or just made-up.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 7th July 2012, 14:58
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Günther Josten 1945 claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokose View Post
Johannes, What is it that you find "suspect" about the claims? Is it the source. I've tried to determine for years now which unit shot down the 5 "Bostons" of the 57 BAP who made a raid on Stargrad on the 19Feb45.
Hi Nokose,

I believe that the claiming unit may have been III/JG 3. 6 claims by unnamed pilots of III/JG 3 around 1400, and one by Fw. Claussen of 9 Staffel at 1358. Hope that helps...

Nick

Last edited by Nick Hector; 7th July 2012 at 15:02. Reason: Addin extra detail
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Old 7th July 2012, 19:43
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Nokose Nokose is offline
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Re: Günther Josten 1945 claims

Nick, I believe that III/JG3 was equiped with Bf 109's and the Russians stated that they were attacked by 12 FW 190. So I don't know if they got the type wrong or some other unit hit them that had 190's.
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Old 8th July 2012, 16:38
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Günther Josten 1945 claims

Good point, but it seems such a coincidence and misidentifications seem to have occurred fairly often.
With all due respect to your viewpoint and in all fairness and friendship, in the absence of better info I am holding to the contention that III/JG 3 was the most likely unit attacking the Bostons.
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