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  #1  
Old 20th January 2020, 02:40
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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Siegfried Zick

Hello

Siegfried Zick (31 victories, DK-G) of 8./JG 11 is said to have shot down in aerial combat and wounded on 18 July 1944 which precluded a return to combat duty. However, it appears that he claimed a LaGG-5 fighter on 20 July 1944 so the former information must be in error. Can anyone shed any light on this matter?

Horrido!

Leo
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  #2  
Old 20th January 2020, 03:17
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Jim P.
Re: Siegfried Zick

Not really an answer, but I if may suggest one thing. If no one else offers any relevant information, wait until the next Jagdfliegerverbande volume shows up. This is supposed to include JG 11 losses and claims, and, if it's anything like the current volume, there may well be significant updates to the claims and losses listed in it. I'm still working through the current volume and there are major differences, to claims particularly, to the JG 1 stuff from the original Prien JG1/11 volumes published 20 years or so ago.
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Old 20th January 2020, 11:24
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Siegfried Zick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Etgen View Post
Hello

Siegfried Zick (31 victories, DK-G) of 8./JG 11 is said to have shot down in aerial combat and wounded on 18 July 1944 which precluded a return to combat duty. However, it appears that he claimed a LaGG-5 fighter on 20 July 1944 so the former information must be in error. Can anyone shed any light on this matter?

Horrido!

Leo
Leo

Indeed a mystery looking at the sources available to me.

In the old JG 1/11 vol 3, J Prien claims Zick was heavily wounded on the 18th while with 10./JG 11 and after that stayed out of the war. No claims listed on the 20th at all.

In Luftwaffe Aces vol 4, J Mathews/J Foreman says Zick claimed 20 victories, was wounded on the 18th and, yes, claimed a La-5 on the 20th while with 8./JG 11.

Quite a few differences....seems only what happened on the 18th is the same...

Cheers
Stig
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  #4  
Old 21st January 2020, 07:06
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Siegfried Zick

Hi Guys

Perhaps I hade mis-identified a name. With Walter Wolfrum a claim appears on the mikrofilms the day after he was very severely wounded, it matched the sequence of claims the day before, and his abschüßelist confirmed that for whatever reason the mikrofilms recorded a claim a day after the event. Also mikrofilms record Günther Rall's 199th-200th claims twice exactly a month apart, and another pilot claiming when his flugbuch shows that he didn't fly that day, Joachim Müncheberg claiming in Russia when he was in Afrika...….obviously though the best source of claims, the mikrofilms anre not perfect.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #5  
Old 22nd January 2020, 10:29
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Siegfried Zick

Hi Guys

Firstly Jochen Prien's earlier works are without microfilm help, and a lot of guesswork is involved. His latest volume are not so inflicted, and are almost perfect.

I checked the claim involved, and actually there is no mistake on my behalf(mikrofilms are of goodith quality for this day) it is Zick claiming on the 20th. As per my earlier reply could be the mikrofilms are two days late. The anerk nr is 6, the nr.5 was recorded for this staffel on 15th July, and the nr.7 on the 30th July.

One other option occurs to me, that is the wounded date is incorrect, and I would guess he was wounded on the 20th July after making his last claim. I have the mikrofilms losses for the Luftwaffe minus year 1944, anyway that is not my expertise. The best losses TOCH member in my opinion is Matti.

We might as well discuss Zick's total. I say "20", history states "31". JG1 & JG11's earlier typed-out pre daily entries mikrofilms do not exist, or have not yet come to light, however I have recorded the periods from the start to the finish of the daily mikrofilms entries...…

2./JG 1 Starts August 1942 ends 5th December 1944
9./JG 11 starts 15th May 1943 ends 23rd December 1944
7./JG 11 Starts 28th July 1943 ends 19th December 1944
8./JG 11 starts 25th July 1943 ends 23rd December 1944

Possibly, and that's a big possibly there is a window that there could be some earlier claims not on the mikrofilms, and thus i'm lacking. But, I believe the different between the totals stems from his "viermot experten" status where very often a "viermot" is counted as two i.e eleven confirmed "viermots", eleven added to his total.

As John Foreman always say "something printed is case in stone" i.e it's believed as fact, therefore this "fact" gets duplicated.....even if incorrect.

To solve the total question, a Zick flugbuch is probably the ultimate answer to it. Obviously this pilot attained his DKiG for his destruction of U.S heavy bombers.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #6  
Old 22nd January 2020, 18:00
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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Siegfried Zick

Hi guys

Many thanks to all who answered for your thoughts on this issue. I would like to thank Johannes for checking the microfilm in question and confirming that it does indeed list his (apparently) final claim on 20 July 1944. It could be that the entry is in error or perhaps the entry for his wounding is what's at fault? It is a shame that there really isn't all that much for the alleged 18 July 1944 incident as it seems that the usual NVM report doesn't appear to exist. I've noticed that there are several such "missing" reports for a couple of important JG 11 aces; Major Anton Hackl on 15 April 1944 and Hauptmann Rolf Hermichen on 12 May 1944, for example. Regarding whether he claimed 20 or 31 victories, I've noticed that, overall, if the claim doesn't appear in the microfilms it more often than not isn't an "official" claim. Of course, there are numerous examples of missing individual claims and large gaps in the existing records as can be expected that sometimes can be verified through other documents but that's what I've usually noticed. Perhaps these 11 non-microfilm claims were unconfirmed claims?

Horrido!

Leo
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  #7  
Old 22nd January 2020, 23:17
Jochen Prien Jochen Prien is offline
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Re: Siegfried Zick

Leo,
let me point at the unit history of JG 1/ 11, Vol. 3, p 1236, footnote 1497, where it says that the exact date when Siegfried Zick was wounded, cannot be proven by official documents but that the date of 18 July 1944 was rather based on information provided by Siegfried Zick himself. Therefore if there was a claim filed on 20 July - which we will have to deal with when it comes to Vol 15 - it is obvious that Siegfried Zick's memory did not serve him well concerning the date of his being wounded.

KR

Jochen Prien
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  #8  
Old 23rd January 2020, 09:01
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Siegfried Zick

Hi all

With jochen's reply it would seem the wounded date is probably what is at fault. There is hardly any actual mistakes with the mikrofilms compared to flugbucher e.t.c that I have found in thousands of comparisons, and in my opinion the biggest mistakes regarding the mikrofilms is the fact that many are mis-read because of poor quality mikrofilms, or even the sometimes appalling handwriting on even good quality mikrofilms. Sometimes you have to read things into just shadows.

As Jochen stated memories are never truly correct....even good ones. A flugbuch is probably the best evidence available as it is extremely unlikey that a pilot doesn't know the date when he fills in a line. I would suggest that a log is filled out soon after a pilot returns from a flight, but almost certainly on that day. This would make a good topic as he should know exactly his take-off and landing times, perhaps pilots shared notes, or an official recorded such times.

Anyway I welcome any more questions, for each question that is investigated could reveal mistakes and thus corrections.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #9  
Old 23rd January 2020, 10:04
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Siegfried Zick

Thank's Jochen/Johannes

A very useful discussion and an interesting and revealing fact why the 18th had been chosen for his wound date.

Very much look forward for your next Opus Jochen!

Cheers
Stig
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