Photos German Flying School - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

musec04 · #1 13th September 2020, 11:15

Stig Jarlevik · #2 13th September 2020, 12:00

Clint

A golden opportunity to try your skills in identifying quite a few rather indifferent "doppeldeckers".

Isn't X5120, 5124 and 5126 the same photos by the way?

Since the seller (again) has made huge efforts to help out (I hope you can at least sense my tongue in cheek) you simply must have a field day here!!

Joking aside, there are three photos, a little bit more interesting than the rest, actually showing ID numbers. One looks like an Albatros B.II, but the other two??

Cheers
Stig

musec04 · #3 13th September 2020, 12:22

Hi Stig,

Ever since I posted the links I've been trying to discover (without success) the unit operating the machines. The three aircraft No.27 ( X5137),No.29 (X5136) and No.26 (X5122) all have a distinctive form of numbering with some kind of script(?) below the No. Unfortunately my record keeping is dependent on Bestellnummer which doesn't help identify any aircraft marked in a like manner I've seen before, if any. Also I note No.29 has an unusual pattern of Cross on the lower upper wing. Have you seen either simialar numbers or a simialar cross previously?

Regards,

Clint

Stig Jarlevik · #4 13th September 2020, 13:12

Sorry Clint

My knowledge regarding different types of crosses and when/where used is negligible.

Somehow the photos feel "wartime", but I might be wrong there.
If they are, then I wonder why no Bestellnummer are visible, but only these "school numbers"? Perhaps they are pre-war, but if so why crosses?
Pre-war civil aircraft did not use any crosses as far as I know.

Thinking a bit loud here, did the schools during the war order aircraft for themselves, outside the Bestellnummer system?
Shaky ground this, if you ask me....

Cheers
Stig

musec04 · #5 13th September 2020, 13:53

Stig,

Well, I definitely don't have anything definitive.But this looks like the early war period as indicated by the fact that some at least of the machines have crosses. However, what strikes me as a possibility is that the machines cover a range of time including from just before the war, for the machines without crosses.I don't however, regard it as unusual for aircraft operated by company run Fliegerersatz Abteilungen not to have Bestellnummern. In fact I would say from photographic evidence that is fairly common.

Given that there seems to be aircraft from a variety of manufacturers shown in the photos I would speculate that some aircraft must either have been ordered by the school itself or alternatively perhaps assigned centrally by the army(?).But in truth,I'm complely in the dark about how the company run Fliegerersatz Abteilungen received their machines when not built by themselves. Huge gaps in my knowledge I'm afraid.

The only clue to location appears to be the reference to Hagenau on the rear of one of the photos. The nearest school,of which I'm aware, would be FEA 5 at Hannover.This did at least exist from early in the war, so may be a possibility.

Regards,

Clint

Stig Jarlevik · #6 13th September 2020, 14:00

Thanks Clint

Yes, the second line units/aircraft etc are very tricky.
Little (or nothing) remains and it certainly doesn't help when photo albums are plundered by "money-hunters" without any thoughts/passion about history what so ever....

Cheers
Stig

jschreiber · #7 14th September 2020, 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by musec04

Stig,

The only clue to location appears to be the reference to Hagenau on the rear of one of the photos. The nearest school,of which I'm aware, would be FEA 5 at Hannover.This did at least exist from early in the war, so may be a possibility.

Regards,

Clint

Hello

Hagenau is probably in Alsace (now Haguenau), 25 km N of Strasbourg. The airfield was built lately (1917), and a Flugschule, depending of FEA 9 (Darmstadt) was operational in Hagenau. Local sources indicate that the Flugschule "Arthur Sasse", on behalf of the Deutscher Fliegerbund, was opened in May 1918 and was closed after the bombing of the airfield in September.

If some elements may be of help... In the early years, the initial training was subcontracted to civiiian schools, who where more interested by the income and were not very motivated to put adequate flying abilities at the pupils. A known example is Gerd Fieseler who was soloed after only two or three flights with the instructor. Result : crashed at the next and spent months at the hospital.
More advanced training was done at the Flugpark level or at the FEA.

The only book I know who speaks of the training is "Die deutschen Luftstreitkräfte im ersten Weltkrieg", written by Niklaas Napp, not so easy to read.

Regards

Jean Schreiber

Stig Jarlevik · #8 14th September 2020, 21:03

Thanks Jean

I think both I and Clint know the rudimentary functions of both pre-war and wartime training.

What at least I don't know is the interaction between the civil schools and the military ones and what really happened when the war broke out. Neither do I know if any such interaction continued during the war and how it really functioned. Did "civil" Flying Schools exist side by side with military ones and if yes how was their aircraft procured, directly with the manufacturers or via military channels?
Probably there was a transitional period at least during 1914 and maybe that is what we are looking at here. The Schools continued to use their own serial range but had to use crosses, which probably was made mandatory more or less straight away after the war had broken out.

With regard to Hagenau, there is no way of knowing if the aircraft really was from the nearest FEA units or not. That is what happens when albums are plundered.....

So perhaps we are looking at a time period 1914-15 with these photos?

Cheers
Stig

musec04 · #9 14th September 2020, 22:32

Hello Jean & Stig,

First, thanks Jean for the correction on the location of Hagenau. Not sure how I came up with Hagenau being close to Hannover, but in any event wrongly. So I agree that the unit involved with the photo with Hagenau on the rear of the photo, is in fact much more likely FEA9 related. Also Jean thanks for the book suggestion, I have a few academic history books published by Ferdinand Schöninghand they are high quality products, but having looked at the contents of Die deutschen Luftstreitkräfte im ersten Weltkrieg I would have to say that it would appear unlikely it contains useful information on how aircraft were supplied to company flying schools, which I think is the area Stig and I would most like further information.

As I said thanks for the correction.However, I think I'd be correct in saying only the first 5 FEA were established at the start of the war.That said FEA 9 took over from FEA 3 at Darmstadt so still some link there perhaps.

Stig, I think you give me too much credit, if you believe I'm that secure in the functions of the Fliegerschulen

But I have a question, in any case. When you write about interaction between 'civil' and military schools and existing side by side I'm not 100 percent clear on your meaning. I came across this link though www.frontflieger.de/3huglo0t.html with the pilot going from FEA 5 to the Fliegerschule der Halberstadt-Werke, also confusingly known as FEA 5. Does this help? Or were you specifically referring as I assume to the movement of aircraft? I believe I can however confirm company schools continued to use their own numbering systems until quite late in the war. My example here is AEG B.I which received the Bestellnummer B.100/17 and indeed the Fokker A.II machines with /16 serials.This showing that company schools coninued to use there own numbering well into the war time, though as you say witth crosses whereas the bulk of the aircraft in the links I provided are Kreuzfrei, if that's even a word.

Regards,

Clint

Stig Jarlevik · #10 15th September 2020, 22:10

Thanks Clint

If the site is correct it at least shows that the Halberstadt's school functioned to at least Jan 1916.
Not surprising, since it would have been very stupid of the leaders if tney didn't use these existing resources.

What would be interesting to know is the interaction between the school and the Luftstreitkräfte. Since Halberstadt built aircraft it would seem odd indeed if the school used other aircraft then their own. So did the school use aircraft having Bestellnummer or did they use aircraft simply put aside for their own use? Since we, in this example, are in 1916, my guess is that the school was by then 100% controlled by the militaries and had to use true Bestellnummer.

Now, since I am on holidays in Munic I don't have any books available but surely the Halberstadt School was formed before the war? Thus they would by necessity have had to use their own system.

When WW 1 broke out, I don't believe the civil schools stopped overnight.
Most likely many (most?) private schools were already training both civil and military pilots and it would have been very stupid to just shut them down.

So for awhile at least there must have been a transitional period where these private schools continued to function and also before the "useless" ones were closed and the "useful" ones were incorporated into the Luftstreitkräfte.

Now I rest my case here, since going any further is pointless due to the more and more guesswork I have to make. But hopefully those interested will see my aim, and perhaps know a bit more how things worked and what kind of interaction there was between civilians and the militaries.

I know I am on very thin ice here......thus quite a bit of rambling I'm afraid.

Cheers
Stig

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