The Bombing of Guernica

[Bruce Dennis]

Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen

Franco being illegal or not, but has either Nick or Bruce actually cared to ponder what would have happened if Stalinists had won? .

Hello Jukka,
Thanks for asking, I have spent a fair part of my life looking at what happened and, more importantly, what the alternatives were.

So there is no confusion about it, now or later, I do not subscribe to the 'official' version of history, and also have little patience with those who are blindly partisan no matter which side they support: the 20th century was a messy, bloody period and every episode from that era I have looked at so far is rich in hypocrisy and jingoism. The fact that enormous sacrifices were made by people all over the planet does not, to me at least, distract from the equally established fact that entire populations were lead to believe lies, and I hope that our work as (amateur) historians will make it harder for this to happen on such a scale again. The leadership of Germany gained credibility in important circles by joining the fight against the Left in Spain, and this is hopefully something we can all agree on: they benefitted and no-one stopped them.

Did the Luftwaffe or any other Air Force have any right to bomb any part of Spain? Absolutely not. Did any other country effectively block the German actions? Absolutely not. Did the plight of Spain get used throughout the world to rally support for the causes representing both sides? Absolutely.

Messy time, the 20th century.

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Sylvester Stadler

The Spanish Republicans may have lost the civil war but they and their Communist cohorts have won the propaganda war which still goes on today with British sources like the TV program mentioned above repeating this lie.

I can recommend James Corum's biography of Wolfram von Richthofen.

It deals with this subject in a concise but still very informative manner.

The irony of the matter is that it is perhaps the western allies that elevate Guernica to ever greater heights, not your "communist cohorts". Just like the Huns in Belgium, so did the wheels of propaganda work leading up to WW2. Of course the Nazis were perfectly capable of committing real atrocities and surprise anyones imagination while they were at it.

So basically Guernica wasn't a war crime nor did thousands of civilians perish, it wasn't communist propaganda, and yes Nazi Germany was proficient enough to commit warcrimes on a large and arguable unsurpassed level.

[John Vasco]

Read 'The Basque History of the World' by Mark Kurlansky, published by Jonathan Cape, London, for another account of the attack on Guernica.

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Sylvester Stadler

The book Guernica: How Hitler's Air Force Destroyed a Spanish City for Franco in Practice for World War II clearly states that the city had as a legitimate target Republican military forces in and around the town. Another source, Hitler's Luftwaffe in the Spanish Civil War, which uses original German sources including von Richthofen's diaries, basically states there is no evidence that the raid was to intimidate civilians and that it was part of a strategy to trap Republican ground forces during the Nationalist advance to Bilbao.

The Spanish Republicans may have lost the civil war but they and their Communist cohorts have won the propaganda war which still goes on today with British sources like the TV program mentioned above repeating this lie.

How about you study the FACTS instead of spouting your selective right-wing propaganda view? Go read properly about the raid on Guernica and its aftermath.

[Sylvester Stadler]

My belief is that the best summary of the bombing of Guernica is in James Corum's The Luftwaffe: Creating the Operational Air War, 1918-1940. He states that "There is no evidence to indicate that the German air attack on Guernica was a "terror bombing" or that Guernica was carefully targeted to break the morale of the Basque populace." "The Condor Legion bombed Guernica because of the simple fact that it was a significant military target. The two major roads needed for the retreat of much of the twenty-three battalions east of Bilbao intersected at Guernica. At least two Basque battalions, the 18th Loyala Battalion and the Saseta Battalion were stationed in the town."

Corum adds that no traffic could move through the area for about 24 hours but that the Nationalist Army did not take advantage of the bombing to cut off the Basque battalions. Corum also states that von Richthofen never had a policy of terror bombing against civilians or deliberate targeting of civilians.

Mr. Vasco, if you have information to the contrary, tell us what it is. Also, I should have added to my statement the phrase "liberal cohorts."

[Jukka Juutinen]

Originally Posted by Bruce Dennis

Messy time, the 20th century.

That´s a statement I can agree 100%. A few general observations:

1) In the recent von Manstein biography by Mungo Melvin the author makes an interesting statement that from 1870 to 1945 German Army allways had a low tolerance for any kind of civilian resistance. Sadly the author does not ponder why it was so. I, for one, understand the policy perfectly: if civilians of an occupied country wish to be treated like civilians, they must also behave like civilians and by the definitions on the international law in effect at that time it meant that they refrain from any form of resistance. Period. Most of the battlefield atrocities in the West were rooted in the aforementioned tradition.

2) As far as the Eastern Front is considered, it is most interesting to note how few authors have asked the big question, i.e. why didn´t the Soviets evacuate their civilian population from the battle zones? And I believe that the answer lies in the mindset of bolshevik leadership. They simply ruthlessly calculated that the partisan warfare that was part and parcel of bolshevik way of war would surely lead to harsh countermeasures and that in turn to increased support for the partisans. And the plan worked perfectly, though at the expense of the poor civilians. That does not exonerate the NS responsibility for the massacres éntirely, or even mostly, but does show that the war on the Eastern Front was a different war from the beginning. And shows that the NS people were their own worst enemies as they simply failed to grasp that their plocies were in total opposition to their main goal, making Germany a BIG player. In short, the NS leadership lacked true statemanship. In this context it is interesting to note that Reinhard Heydrich was assassinated for exactly the same reason. Heydrich had managed to pacify the protectorate so that the British leadership wasn´t happy for the lack of saboteur activity there. So they carried out the assassination in the belief that Hiter will be enraged and will order excessive countermeasures. And again the plan worked like a charm. And again the poor civilians paid the price. And again the NS folks screwed up.

3) It is also quite interesting to note that the books by Polish historian Bogdan Musial have not been translated into English while every second rate holocaust book is. Musial´s findings are simply not too pleasant for the left dominated academia and political establishment as he has shown that while the Soviets were retreating in 1941, NKVD was fully committed to liquidate large number of people Stalin considered as his enemies.

4) And it is interesting too to note how Sylvester Stadler is harped upon due to his choice of a name. I am pretty certain that had he selected e.g. Ivan Konev as his name, no harping upon would take place. Yet, if the careers of these two are compared, one will note that Stadler spent his entire NS era career as a career military man, while Konev began his career as a political commissar who e.g. took action against anti-Bolshevik uprisings. And if Franco was an illegal entity, then the Soviet regime was even more illegal.

[mars]

Jukka, could you please explain What Stalin, Communist and East Front had anything to do with the bombing of Guernica

[Bruce Dennis]

[quote=Jukka Juutinen;111524]That´s a statement I can agree 100%. A few general observations:

... Heydrich had managed to pacify the protectorate so that the British leadership wasn´t happy for the lack of saboteur activity there. ...QUOTE]

I am sorry, Jukka, but to rationalise the bombing of Guernica with a statement that, somehow, the evil butcher Heydrich was doing good is beyond me.

Bruce

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Sylvester Stadler

"The Condor Legion bombed Guernica because of the simple fact that it was a significant military target. The two major roads needed for the retreat of much of the twenty-three battalions east of Bilbao intersected at Guernica. At least two Basque battalions, the 18th Loyala Battalion and the Saseta Battalion were stationed in the town."

Now all you have to do is explain what business Germany had in attacking the forces of a legal and elected government in a country with which Germany was not at war.

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen

3) It is also quite interesting to note that the books by Polish historian Bogdan Musial have not been translated into English while every second rate holocaust book is. Musial´s findings are simply not too pleasant for the left dominated academia and political establishment as he has shown that while the Soviets were retreating in 1941, NKVD was fully committed to liquidate large number of people Stalin considered as his enemies.

I don't think it is "leftist academia" nor the "political establishment" who dominate History when it comes to these subjects, it is wartime propaganda, popular believe and to some extend even current political pressure groups. Not to mention (good) business sense in terms of who and what sells and who and what doesn't.

When I look at the subject of the Holocaust, you are much more likely to buckle under conservative (right wing) jewish interest groups than under a left(ist) academician. The latter will try to counter you with arguments, while the former will attack with any means possible including legal action and dirty tricks.

Note that I am not taking a position on the subject of the Holocaust, but describing what I generally observe.

This is just one subject, but in general I see conservatives to be just as entrenched to maintain the status quo when it comes to (ww2) history as so-called leftists, perhaps even more actively and effectively so.

WW2 is still too modern for us to be objective, too many links with the current world (order). Governments are still too painfully aware of many a dirty action, secret or exposed.

WW1 is slowly entering the objectivity phase, but will still lead to some painful debate.