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Old 30th January 2020, 18:06
Steve Coates Steve Coates is offline
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

The NVMs represent a partial solution, albeit a decent percentage of the missing losses. The good news is that since responsibility for WASt was passed from the Berlin authorities to the BA in January 2019, there has been a relaxation in the interpretation of Datenschutz. Access is slowly opening up but it does seem to occur in increments. I have also heard from a contact that WAST (now known as the BA-PA - Abteilung Personenbezogene Auskünfte) will start a process of scanning the NVMs but accessibility is at the moment unclear. Ideally, within the next few years it will be possible to see genuine progress.
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Old 30th January 2020, 19:54
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John Vasco John Vasco is offline
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

Thanks for that update, Steve. Interesting.
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Old 31st January 2020, 01:22
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

...............fortunately, we have Matti Salonen who has so generously and graciously stepped in to fill the 1944 gap.

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Old 2nd February 2020, 21:38
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

I would suggest another thread on German losses and related paperwork, not only 1944.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 16:35
rof120 rof120 is offline
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A suggestion (?) about: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

1944 German losses are far from being my main concern or field of research but of course I have great sympathy for the mourners and I, too, strongly wish that these documents could be found at last. As you know there were numerous huge air battles 1944, in which often hundreds of German fighters were involved (up to 500 I think), not to mention Allied fighters, mainly "Mustangs" in any numbers up to 1,000 for some missions. Such numbers make it even more frustrating not to have the corresponding German documents.

First a remark: as most of you know official documents, especially those documents of this kind here, originally did not exist in one single "copy" but rather in fairly numerous copies which were kept by or sent to various departments like a JG, the Jafü, Jagddivisionen, RLM etc. Who knows how many copies were made normally about losses? Perhaps Mr. Prien?

I guess (only a guess) original loss lists drawn up by JGs were typed with at least 6 (six) copies plus the original, totalling seven. So it would not be unreasonable to expect that at least one copy, possibly several ones, have survived to this day. Obviously the big question is: where are they now? That's what it's all about. Some, possibly odd and unexpected, archives, especially in the USA and in Russia - mainly in Russia I think - would be a good start. I admit I have no experience at all with US or Russian archives. I suspect that, especially in Russia, there could be a certain amount of documents which never were classified or put in good order (yet). Soviet forces seized huge amounts of paper 1945 in Germany, mainly in Berlin. Perhaps it's just a matter of patience and the Holy Graal (1944 loss lists) will reappear some day, probably in Moscow. On the other hand they could be anywhere in the world including in Germany, Argentina or New Zealand.

Remember that years ago already Russia sent back to France the French documents (mainly about the 1940 fighting) seized by the Germans occupying France, then (1945) by Soviet forces in Germany. This example is encouraging.

SUGGESTION: why not publish some kind of announcements in daily newspapers (ordinary papers like the Daily Telegraph, Ouest France, the Washington Post and lesser, local papers), if possible free of charge because their text would make interesting reading to most people. Instead of ads some articles explaining the problem could be published by dailies and of course by aviation reviews and magazines. I think ordinary papers, not particularly aviation magazines, would be more interesting because aviation enthusiasts are fairly well informed already. Some precious documents could be detained by fully ordinary people like you and me (but no airpower enthusiasts) including Army veterans and their children and grandchildren.

If it proves necessary to pay for ads in the press why not? Of course you need some money to do that. For lack of time I have no possibility of dealing with this but I am prepared to contribute as much as $ 100 (I'm mot a rich man) if for example some TOCH "super moderator(s)" decide(s) to work on this and create a dedicated bank account. I think financial contributions by as many TOCH-members as possible could finance this project easily.

Well, what do you think?

Last edited by rof120; 3rd February 2020 at 20:23.
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