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Old 16th May 2010, 22:48
cj mohr cj mohr is offline
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Hans Ulrich Rudel at Kursk

Hello,

I am looking for any information relating to the story related in Rudel's book "Stuka Pilot" where it appears he made 12 tank kills on 5 July 1943 using a JU-87G-1 "Kanonenvogel". Specifically, any information which relates these claims to specific Soviet units, or clarifies what time or location the kills were achieved, would be appreciated.

It seems possible that the action might have been on a later date during the Zitadelle offensive, as Rudel's book is a little short on details, and his unit apparently arrived just at the outset of the offensive.

Some of Rudel's description speaks of tanks in the open, where they would have been much easier to spot and attack. However, if I understand correctly the first couple of days of the Zitadelle battle in the south would mostly have seen Soviet armor employed defensively, and less frequently in the open, except during counterattacks.

If anyone has any insight in this matter or suggested reading, I will greatly appreciate the help.
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Old 16th May 2010, 23:17
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Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
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Re: Hans Ulrich Rudel at Kursk

IIRC I have Dave Wadman to thank for giving me "Mikrof.Aleks. T-314/197 - Kriegstagebuch Gen.Kdo. III. Pz.Korps, Gen.Kdo. VIII. Fl.Korps, Ia Nr. 977/43 g.Kdos., Gef.Qu. den 30.06.1943"

For 5 July 1943 it lists the following successes: "Kampf-, Stuka- und Schlacht- formations attacked with their point of concentration on the II. SS-Pz.Korps front. Successes: 7 tanks, 30 guns, 70 Kfz, 9 ammunition and fuel dumps destroyed."

Dave also sent me minutes of command discussions for a couple of days and on 4 July Jeschonnek and Manstein are discussing the problems arising from holding the tank-hunting formations back and at 17.10 hours: "Order received from Field Marshal von Manstein, [ref.] Gen.Feldm. 1a Nr. 2201/43 g.Kdos.: commitment of Luftflotte 4’s tank hunting Gruppe will be called for by the Army Group in every instance where a build-up of armour [literally “a forming of a Panzer Schwerpunkt”] by the enemy allows the recognition of an imminent armoured battle or breakthrough."

On the 7th, the report claims 44 tanks destroyed and 32 damaged for the day; 84 on the 8th

So it looks like 5 July was the first day the tank hunting units were committed, so maybe Rudel attached his success to that date (then again, his memoirs are so heavily laced with deluded Nazi BS that it's difficult to know what you can rely on).

(I don't have the minutes for 5 July and nor do I know the archive source details for these items).
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Old 16th May 2010, 23:55
cj mohr cj mohr is offline
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Re: Hans Ulrich Rudel at Kursk

Thank you for the help, Nick. It helps fill in the blanks.

I certainly agree with your assessment of his Rudel's memoirs. I read the book out of love for firsthand history, but I was immediately struck by the tone, and consequently viewed the text with some skepticism, due to the seeming "propaganda talking points" interspersed throughout.

Thank you for the help with the numbers on the 7th and 8th. It certainly seems like Rudel could have misremembered the date of his big day (something which is entirely excusable for someone involved in so much combat for a protracted time).
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Old 17th May 2010, 14:59
Pawel Burchard Pawel Burchard is offline
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Re: Hans Ulrich Rudel at Kursk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
IIRC I have Dave Wadman to thank for giving me "Mikrof.Aleks. T-314/197 - Kriegstagebuch Gen.Kdo. III. Pz.Korps, Gen.Kdo. VIII. Fl.Korps, Ia Nr. 977/43 g.Kdos., Gef.Qu. den 30.06.1943"
Just for the record - Dave was kind enough gave away my files, unfortunately without any form of credit

p.
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Old 17th May 2010, 15:34
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Re: Hans Ulrich Rudel at Kursk

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Originally Posted by Pawel Burchard View Post
Just for the record - Dave was kind enough gave away my files, unfortunately without any form of credit

p.
Or to put it another way, he showed something to a friend that he thought they might find interesting. Since it came years ago in an email that I certainly can't be bothered to spend time looking for, I can't comment on whether you were the source of this material.
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Old 17th May 2010, 15:41
Pawel Burchard Pawel Burchard is offline
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Re: Hans Ulrich Rudel at Kursk

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Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
Or to put it another way, he showed something to a friend that he thought they might find interesting. Since it came years ago in an email that I certainly can't be bothered to spend time looking for, I can't comment on whether you were the source of this material.
Yes I was, 100%

p.
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Old 17th May 2010, 16:23
Pawel Burchard Pawel Burchard is offline
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Re: Hans Ulrich Rudel at Kursk

Quote:
Originally Posted by cj mohr View Post
I am looking for any information relating to the story related in Rudel's book "Stuka Pilot" where it appears he made 12 tank kills on 5 July 1943 using a JU-87G-1 "Kanonenvogel".
Following is last entry of available KTB of Stab Stuka 2

4.7.1943 | Das Geschwader verlegt mit allen Gruppen und der Panzerjagdstaffel ohne Bodenpersonal der I./2 nach Charkow-Nord. Es werden 89 Ju 87 überführt. Die übrigen Flugzeuge werden in den nächsten Tagen nachgeholt.

I doubt there were prerequisites for Panzerjäger operations on 5.7.

p.
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Old 17th May 2010, 18:05
Pawel Burchard Pawel Burchard is offline
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Re: Hans Ulrich Rudel at Kursk

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Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
Or to put it another way, he showed something to a friend that he thought they might find interesting. Since it came years ago in an email that I certainly can't be bothered to spend time looking for, I can't comment on whether you were the source of this material.
Nick, I wouldn't like to start another unfortunate public discussion here but you could justify any form of plagiarism talking like this. And if you make someone elses work open to public you should at least give the proper credits that Dave forgot to do. That's all.

p.
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Old 17th May 2010, 19:26
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Re: Hans Ulrich Rudel at Kursk

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Originally Posted by Pawel Burchard View Post
... you should at least give the proper credits that Dave forgot to do. That's all.

p.
The point at issue is my memory, not anything Dave did. This thread started and I thought I might have something relevant. It turns out that I did. I remembered Dave sending it but I can't even remember whether it was already in English or I translated it, let alone whether he said where it was from. Certainly Stuka operations at Kursk are way outside my field so it wasn't data I ever had any likelihood or thought of using - I rarely touch on topics earlier than 1944.
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Old 18th May 2010, 17:30
Pawel Burchard Pawel Burchard is offline
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Re: Hans Ulrich Rudel at Kursk

Ok, let's just forget about it. I really did not intend to put any blame on you.

p.
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