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Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

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  #21  
Old 31st May 2005, 03:24
George Hopp's Avatar
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Re: Small B17 bomb bay and bomb load

There has never been any doubt that the B-17 carried a smaller bomb load than the Halifax and Lancaster. So what? And, Bomber Command dropped great quantities of bombs on the German refineries in the last few months of the war, after the German early warning system had been destroyed, and the refineries had already been mortally wounded by the USAAF. Again, so what? Reading the official histories clearly shows that while the British were burning cities and killing civilians, the USAAF was decimating the German fighter arm, destroying the German war-making capacity, bringing transportation in western Europe to a virtual standstill, and making D-Day possible. They all enforce the perception that it's not the size of the bomb load, but how intelligently the bomb load is used.
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  #22  
Old 31st May 2005, 06:40
Vinman Vinman is offline
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Re: Small B17 bomb bay and bomb load

Hello George,
Excellent post! My thoughts exactly, you couldn't have said it better.
Vinman.
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  #23  
Old 31st May 2005, 08:50
Jon Jon is offline
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Re: Small B17 bomb bay and bomb load

Still waiting for an answer to the question !


Jon
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  #24  
Old 31st May 2005, 08:53
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Re: Small B17 bomb bay and bomb load

Oh! and one other thing.

As you Canadians flew with us Brits i assume when you say British killing civilians...you mean WE were killing civilians. Not nice from a country that has never been on the wrong end of a bomb!

Tally ho!
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  #25  
Old 31st May 2005, 17:13
Smudger Smith Smudger Smith is offline
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Re: Small B17 bomb bay and bomb load

Dear George & Vin,

I have taken an hour or so before I attempt to reply to your posts, I have had to read your posts a few time’s just to make sure I was not hallucinating

I have never heard such rubbish;

Bomber Command had no involvement in the disruption of the transport and railway networks in occupied Europe pre and post D-Day. ?

Bomber Command did not attack oil targets or war producing factories. ?

Bomber Command only attacked German cities killing “innocent” civilians. ?

Unbelievably naïve, and rather sad when one considers the magnificent contribution of the Canadian No.6 Group, RAF Bomber Command.

The contribution of the US 8th & 15th Airforce was without doubt massive and decisive; the destruction of the German fighter arm was in no small measure the result of the US Mustangs, Thunderbolts and Lightings. However you so casually belittle RAF Bomber Commands contribution. Both worked together towards victory, side by side sharing the same dangers. It’s rather unfortunate that people such as you wish to run-down the contribution of Bomber Command because it suits your political stance. I humbly suggest you read a number of books on RAF Bomber Command, yes the command made mistakes, and should have perhaps change it’s bombing policies sooner. That’s me being objective and rational, you both might want to try it.

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  #26  
Old 31st May 2005, 18:26
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Re: Small B17 bomb bay and bomb load

Smudger, I again agreed with You. I'm also puzzled with George's message.
George, BC was an active participant in transport plan before D-Day and it began again attack oil targets on night 12/13 June 1944 with a successful attack on Nordstern synthetic-oil plant in Gelsenkirchen. It should be mentioned in the Official History, Vol. IV, p. 322. My source is Middlebrook and Everitt's The Bomber Command War Diaries (ISBN 0-670-80137-2) p. 527.

Juha
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  #27  
Old 31st May 2005, 19:30
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is online now
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Re: Small B17 bomb bay and bomb load

In France in 1944, raids by BC against railroads were both more efficient and less bloody for French civilians than raids by 8th and 15th AF. So the distinction between USAAF precision bombing and BC area bombing seems not so serious to me.
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  #28  
Old 31st May 2005, 19:36
Vinman Vinman is offline
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Re: Small B17 bomb bay and bomb load

Hello Jon,
Yes, I will answer your question. The B17 did not carry the same bomb load as the Lancaster. But, if you read my first post, you will find that on average, the Lancaster carried around 5000-6500 lbs per A/C and not the max that it was designed to do. Again, it depended on the range and type of target.
The point that I am trying to make is that on average, the Lancaster, Halifax, B17 and B24 were flying missions with more or less the same bomb loads.
Those three KEY EXAMPLES of RAF night raids that I posted, have the stats.
No one is trying to belittle Bomber Command, I certainly am not. The whole Allied contribution to the destruction of Europe, was a team effort.
However, one must admit, that the USAAF was a huge factor in winning the war.
Vinman.
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  #29  
Old 31st May 2005, 20:01
Six Nifty .50s Six Nifty .50s is offline
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Re: Small B17 bomb bay and bomb load

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti
In France in 1944, raids by BC against railroads were both more efficient and less bloody for French civilians than raids by 8th and 15th AF.


That may have been true about rail lines, but not in general.

For example, in July 1944 the RAF area bombed Caen in front of the British Army which was stalled outside the city. The Bomber Command raid was completely unnecessary, doing more to help the German Army than damage them. Very few German troops were inside Caen and many French civilians were killed by the bombs. Later, some of the bombing survey teams discovered that the British Army advance was actually delayed more by the huge bomb craters and piles of rubble that blocked their path through the city.
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  #30  
Old 31st May 2005, 20:25
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Re: Small B17 bomb bay and bomb load

Note that as a moderator I must point out at this stage that only an objective discussion can be allowed to continue, once this becomes an emotional dispute I will have to close it down.

Hopefully we can all continue without reaching that point since the subject is an interesting one.
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