Libau 28 October 1944

[Laurent Rizzotti]

On 28 October 1944, II/JG 54 claimed 14 Il-2 in 12 minutes (11.44-11.56) near Libau, East Prussia. Maj Erich Ruddorffer claimed 9, the 5 other being claimed by 3 other German aces (Uffz Hugo Broch (2), Fw Kurt Tangermann (2) and Lt Gerhard Thyben).

Does anyone have a clue about the attacked Soviet unit and the real losses ?

Thanks in advance

Laurent

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello, Laurent!

14:12 Moscow Time (12:12 CET) 24 Pe-2 (12.GPBAP) with escort of 28 Yak-9 (14.GIAP) and 14 Yak-9 (21.IAP) made an attack against transports in Libava (Libau) port without losses. About the same time 26 Il-2 (8.GShAP) and 22 Il-2 (47.ShAP) with escort of 30 Yak-9/LaGG-3 (9.IAP) made the same mission. Losses during dogfight were 3 Il-2, also 2 Yak-9 (21.IAP) collided in air on return flight; claims were 8 FW-190 (really 1 or more?).

It seems Ruddorffer and his men had more rich fantasy that day than their Soviet opponents.

Regards,
Andrey

[marsyao]

it looks like major Ruddorffer's overclaims did not limit in North Africa

[Nikita Egorov]

Originally Posted by marsyao

it looks like major Ruddorffer's overclaims did not limit in North Africa

Surely not:-))) Especially, it can be detected during Rudorffer's "major successes", such as on November 6, 1943...

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Thanks, Andrey. I was guessing something like that. My source claimed that Ruddorffer became known as the "fighter of Libau" by Soviet pilots. In reality they probably didn't notice anything special this day.

By the way, are you the same Andrey Kuznetsov that had much knwoledge about the Soviet Navy on "Norway on WWII" and "Warsailors" forum ?

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello, Laurent!

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

By the way, are you the same Andrey Kuznetsov ...

Yes.

Regards,
Andrey

[kolya1]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

Thanks, Andrey. I was guessing something like that.

And more so, it seems that at that period of the war, at least in this area, such overclaims were not uncommon, as you can see for the other raids on Libau (this is only the result of a short research, not necessarily perfectly accurate, but I think it more or less is...) :

- 14/12/1944 : according to John Weal's Osprey book about JG 54, JG 54 scored 44 defending Libau on that day, while the soviet losses were 16 planes (at least 2 of which and probably most of the others fell to AAA).

- 15/12/1944 : same source : 56 claims for JG 54, this time the soviet side lost 24 planes to all causes.


If you consider that AAA was the cause for a non-negligible part of these losses, and that other fighter units (at least Stab/JG 51 and III/SG 3 were also operating Fw-190s in this area) could have been involved, the overclaiming is quite obvious...

[marsyao]

Originally Posted by Nikita Egorov

Surely not:-))) Especially, it can be detected during Rudorffer's "major successes", such as on November 6, 1943...

more details please ?

[Nikita Egorov]

Judging by Tony Wood's listings on November 6, 1943 the following jagdgruppe claimed this number of Soviet fighters in the vicinity of Kiev:
II/JG54 - Yaks - 22 (including 13 by Rudorrfer and 5 by Tangerman)
La-5 - 3
IV/JG54 - La-5 - 5
I/JG51 - Yak-9 - 3
La-5 - 3

Actuall losses for 256 IAD and 8 GIAD (which participated in the combats around Kiev on that day were: 3 Yak-7 and 3 La-5 shot down in combats, 2 Yak-7 and 2 La-5 failed to return from missions and 3 La-5 damaged due to enemy fighters, conducted belly landings on friendly territoty.

Please note that definition "failed to return" does not necesserily mean that they were shot down by fighters...

Originally Posted by marsyao

more details please ?

[Evgeny Velichko]

Gentlmen, lets start

Around 12:00, there was an attack of Il-2's of 47 ShAP KBF and 8 GvShAP KBF.

Seems, that 47 ShAP made its attack from SW of Libau, while 8 GvShAP - from NW of Libau.

8 GvShAP lost one Il-2 with crew:
Pilot Gv. Ml. L-t Viktor N. Karev (MiA)
Gunner Gv. St. Krasnfl. Petr I. Gavrilov (MiA)

This crew "failed to return from combat mission", location of loss is unknown. This loss almost for sure goes to Hugo Broch, who claimed ths and 1 more Il-2. 2nd claim is not confirmed by VVS losses, but I dont know how many there were damaged Il-2's during that raid.

47 ShAP lost 2 crews:

Pilot Ml. Lt. Fedor V. Turin (or Gurin), KiA
Gunner Ml. S-t. Vasili S. Pikanin (KiA)

Pilot Ml. Lt. Vladimir I. Zakharov, KiA
Gunner Ml. S-t Ivan I. Pryakhin, KiA

47 ShAp logbook states:

8 Il-2 came under attack of 8 Fw190 and lost 2 a/c. Both Il-2 were shot up by fighters, and crashed in flames in the sea 8-9 km SW from Libau. Both crew killed.

This two losses almost for sure were victims of Stabsswarm (Stab II./JG54) - claims at 11:46-11:48, ~10km SW from Libau, both Rudorffer and Tangermann claimed 2 Il-2 each, in almost same time and location. So, it could be shared victories to both pilots, or 2 confirmed to Tangermann (and 0 to Rudorffer), or 2 confirmed to Rudorffer (and 0 to Tangermann).

After that, Rudorffer and Tangermann continued chasing Il-2 formation and claimed 9 more Il-2 shot down, with actual loss = 0 (number of damaged Il-2 is unknown, but some Il-2 could be damaged by AAA). So, all those 9 claims are pure overclaim.

Note: second claim at 11:53, wich "jumped" far to west, is probably typo of staff cleric.

At 11:54 (when Rudorffer claimed his almost last victory) Lt. Thyben claimed Il-2 (not painted on the map below) in location of first Tangermann+Rudorffer claims. But it is for pure overclaim, as we knowm that both Il-2 were lost during first engagement.

Also, 2 Il-2 were claimed by Obfhr. Ludwig Böes of 2./JG54, a half-an-hour later, and far to west from location. I have no idea, who were those Il-2 (no losses or even other operations in that area on that day). So, seems that both claims of Böes are pure overclaim.



There was a second raid on that day (som hours later), but it is another story.