Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 6th March 2017, 13:28
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 421
Paul Thompson is on a distinguished road
Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov View Post
According to the report, one He111 from II./KG26 (with bombs) was used as shadower, and 7 He111 as torpedo planes. So British radio intelligence had missed at least one aircraft (an in the Soviet after-action analysis it was missed too).

Torpedo hits weren't achieved "due to cruiser's skillful evasive manoeuvers". Bombing also hadn't visible results.

Lost 1T+JH fell in flames according to the report. So some German crew(s) saw the loss.
Hello Andrey,

I have been told that the quality of Selke copies may depend on the skill of the operator, which may account for some of the variability. Congratulations on finding the Tagesabschlussmeldung

Looking at the Bewegungsmeldung again, it distinguishes between the He 111 H-6 and He 111 H-6 LT fairly consistently. Given that 6./KG 26 was at Grosetto and probably was entirely equipped with the He 111 H-6 LT, it is reasonable to assume that the rest of II./KG 26 operated as a mixed level bomber and torpedo-bomber unit. It is noteworthy that the attack on the Molotov appears to mark the end of significant German torpedo-bomber operations in the Black Sea. Can you see in the documents whether II./KG 26 was ordered to change to a different tasking sometime in August? I am surprised that the Y-Service intercepted communications from almost all the German aircraft. Unless they had a secret listening post in Turkey, the nearest Y-Service installation could not have been closer than 1,000 kilometres away from the action. It is good that the Germans were using HF rather than VHF radios in their bombers!

The report of the attack is remarkably honest. It is overwhelmingly likely that an explosion of the torpedo warhead, with its 250 kg charge, and the consequent shearing off of the Molotov's stern, would have been noticed by the torpedo bomber crews. The shot down Heinkel may have been on fire and therefore easier to see, but it probably made less noise than the structural failure of the ship's stern. It is therefore highly probable that the Molotov was hit by a torpedo boat. It would indeed be interesting to see the time of the aircraft loss.

Warm regards,

Paul

Last edited by Paul Thompson; 6th March 2017 at 13:29. Reason: edited for clarity
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 6th March 2017, 14:02
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 421
Paul Thompson is on a distinguished road
Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

Here is another fact, which may be of some relevance to this incident. The source is not clear, unfortunately. I got the quote in question from this forum post:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...What-Were-they

If the information presented is factually correct, it is possible that the more reliable LT F5W torpedoes were not available in the Black Sea, since they came from Italian production. This is a speculative comment, since there is no evidence that any aircraft torpedo hit the Molotov in the first place, so the question of torpedo detonation should not be relevant.

"Aircrafts have been spaced about 200-300 meters apart, and both LT F5b (improved version) and Italian LT F5W torpedoes were used. The F5W was preferred as the F5b’s whisker-type detonating pistol seldom operated when the target was hit at an sharp angle. Torpedoes were launched at a range of 1000 meters, and usually from a height of 40 meters (125 feet), the parent aircraft flying dead straight and level in order for the weapon to enter the water at the stipulated 12 degrees. AA fire, particularly that of 20mm Oerlikon guns, was considered a greater threat than escorting RN fighters. Observation of torpedo-tracks or hits was next to impossible, as the parent aircraft had to execute violent evasive action as soon as the weapon was dropped"
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 10th March 2017, 00:06
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 505
Andrey Kuznetsov is on a distinguished road
Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

Hello Paul,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Thompson View Post
Can you see in the documents whether II./KG 26 was ordered to change to a different tasking sometime in August?
FlieFu Süd was disbanded 9.Aug.42. In Einsatzbefehl for 8.Aug II./KG26 was mentioned as usual. As far as I know, the unit was transferred to Italy in Sep.42.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Thompson View Post
It is overwhelmingly likely that an explosion of the torpedo warhead, with its 250 kg charge, and the consequent shearing off of the Molotov's stern, would have been noticed by the torpedo bomber crews. The shot down Heinkel may have been on fire and therefore easier to see, but it probably made less noise than the structural failure of the ship's stern.
No, it was a surprisingly silent event. For example in the ship's control center it wasn't heard at all due to sounds of gun firing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Thompson View Post
It would indeed be interesting to see the time of the aircraft loss.
Maybe Matti Salonen can help with the exact time of loss of He111H-6 WNr 4816 ...

Warm regards,
Andrey

Last edited by Andrey Kuznetsov; 10th March 2017 at 00:09. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RAF and RAAF ORBs available on the Web (new version) Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 62 4th January 2017 13:03
Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine Flak queries 1940-1944 Theo Boiten Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 16th November 2016 18:27
Luftwaffe Flak Reichsverteidigung queries 1942 Theo Boiten Allied and Soviet Air Forces 5 5th July 2016 11:45
Kg51 "edelweiss" the complete history of kg 51 in world war ii". Mike H Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 14 8th February 2015 12:24
Staffelkapitäne 7. 8. et 9. /KG 26 martin75 Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 6th July 2010 08:42


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2007, 12oclockhigh.net