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  #11  
Old 14th March 2015, 22:52
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Re: Morato's Air Combat Victories

hi,

Curiously I just found another different information about this day:

11-12 june 37: 4 losses of RZ in these two days Revista Aeroplano Nº23 page 62 by Morato Squadron.

11.6.37 Benjumea R-Z Republican Spanish Prob?
11.6.37 Benjumea R-Z Republican Spanish Prob?

RZ .- Luis Alonso Vega RZ .- Jose Mateo Leon, Grupo 20, by Morato Squadron (Benjumea)
RZ .- Luis Alonso Vega RZ .- Jose Mateo Leon, Grupo 20, by Morato Squadron (Benjumea)

12.6.37 Joaquín García Morato R-5 or R-Z Republican Spanish
12.6.37 Guerrero R-5 or R-Z Republican Spanish

probably the planes were claimed as "Papagayo" but were R-Z

RZ 2 losses 12 june 37 by Morato Squadron, Grupos 12,20,25 in Revista Aeroplano Nº23 page 62

also add an explanation about the misindentification:

Nacionalists sometimes confused the type of enemy biplane aircraft between Rasantes, Natachas, Aero-101, Pragas and Ocas called all Papagayos…on page 68, Revista Aeroplano Nº23

regards
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"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
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  #12  
Old 5th April 2015, 17:34
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: Morato's Air Combat Victories

I do not have complete or good summary of surviving Republican loss records at hand, but is there enough information to make following analysis of García Morato´s air victories:

1) those confirmed by Republican sources and documented wreck findings, García Morato being the only claimant of the case.

2) those probable by Republican sources, but in which there are also other possible claimants than García Morato - this refers specially to large scale air combats in which Nationalists made more claims than can be verified by surviving Republican records. Misidentification of the type of enemy plane should be taken in account as well as mistakes in dates.

3) legitimate claims in a sense that Republican plane was not destroyed or written off, but nevertheless damaged and force-landed behind its own lines.

4) those unlikely to be verified by any reliable means.

Håkans Aviation page has day-to-day info of air combats of SCW, but I´m not sure if that it is complete enough to give reliable data basis for an accurate analysis.

Of the whole overclaiming scale of air victories during airwar of SCW it seems to me that something like 3:1 was very normal (as it was also in WW2) when compared to the actual number of destroyed enemy planes.

The Nationalist claims over destroyed Republican planes in air combats were as much as 1325 (709 by ltalians, 314 by Legion Condor and 320 by Spanish and other Nationalist pilots). Taking in account that overclaiming of 3:1 (and even more) was very common, the true figure of Republican aircraft losses in air combat is probably somewhere around 400 - 600.

More losses were perhaps due to combined effecct of accidents, enemy AA and groundfire, simple abandoment due to technical reasons (lack of spare parts) and planes destroyed on the ground and also destroyed by the Republicans themselves.
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  #13  
Old 14th April 2015, 04:35
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Thumbs up Re: Morato's Air Combat Victories

Hi,
i agree totally with 3-1 proportion, i found a lot of damaged that return or force-landed in allied/enemy territory....

regards
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"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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  #14  
Old 26th April 2015, 13:49
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Re: Morato's Air Combat Victories

hi,

about these claims:

24 15/07/1937 1 I-16 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Brunete 2-G-3 2 I-15 lost and one I-16 (in other source 2 I-16 shot down), republicans claimed 7 between CR-32 and He-51
25 15/07/1937 1 I-16 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Brunete 2-G-3 2 I-15 lost and one I-16 (in other source 2 I-16 shot down), republicans claimed 7 between CR-32 and He-51

i found in this web:
http://airaces.narod.ru/spane/minaev.htm

it seems that Minaev Alexander E. (Минаев Александр Ефимович) was is victim in this combat, but the other claim maybe was overclaim or only damaged....

regards
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"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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  #15  
Old 25th December 2018, 23:04
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Morato's Air Combat Victories

Good evening Gentlemen,

currently I'm trying to find out more about Joaquin García Morato.
I worked through Alfredo Logoluso's highly recommendable book:
https://www.amazon.com/Fiat-CR-32-Sp...3&sr=8-1-fkmr1
which indicates 40+4shared kills for him.
One if the latter is the half-share on 16Sep, two others are moored airships on 23Oct 1936:
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/spain_morato.htm
Can anybody tell me anything about the fourth shared kill of García Morato ?

Cheers,

Michael
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