Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 8th August 2005, 11:00
ChrisMAg2's Avatar
ChrisMAg2 ChrisMAg2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 230
ChrisMAg2
RAF raid on Brunswick, Jan. 14, 1944

The RAF raided Brunswick on Jan. 14, 1944 with a total of 496 Lancasters and 2 Halifax. We have managed to find out that 406, 428 and 432 Sq RCAF were part of the group. Is there a way of finding out what other units were involved in this raid? And were any of the other units equipped with Lancaster II and report casualties on that raid /area?

The whole topic is because the salvage of Lancaster II (that is an assummption at the moment, because of four bristol radials).

The topic came up here (a german forum), from page 4 on, while asking about some findings:
http://www.luftschutzbunker-forum.de...3&page=4&pp=10


Known facts:
-A four radial engined (we know they should be Bristol Hercules, but what type?) bomber crashed, due to german nightfighters. The a/c was still carrying parts of the payload (window, radar jamming foils).
-Bones from the crew could be recovered, but AFAIK no personal items.
-Parts of the a/c were recoverd with some stencils/ markings, details are unknown
-We have found out, that 7 Lancaster II were lost on that raid. 4 are reported form the involved canadians
-The crash site is approx. 20 km east of Brunwsick. The bomber was shot down on the way to Brunswick, after passing the area of turnpoint Bremen.

Any help is very welcome.
__________________
Regards
Christian M. Aguilar

Last edited by ChrisMAg2; 8th August 2005 at 11:08.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 8th August 2005, 20:00
Allan125 Allan125 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cornwall/UK
Posts: 244
Allan125 is on a distinguished road
Re: RAF raid on Brunswick, Jan. 14, 1944

Hello Christian

According to Chorleys BCL it shows for 14-15 Jan 1944 an operation to Braunschweig. Losses are recorded for the following squadrons: 7, 9, 12, 44, 49, 97, 100, 101, 115, 156, 166, 207, 405, 408, 432, 514, 550, 576, 622 and 626.

Lancaster II's were lost from 514 squadron LL685 JI-G2 - crashed 800 metres W of Bennebostel, 5 km S of Celle, and LL679 JI-J2 it only states "all are buried in Hannover war cemetery". 432 squadron DS850 QO-M - crashing on the Engdener Wuste, E of Nordhorn and DS740 QO-Z - crashed at Lagershausen 6 km NE of Northeim. 408 squadron LL699 EQ-C it only states "Those who died rest in Hannover war cemetery". DS767 EQ-Q it only states "all rest in Hannover war cemetery". 115 squadron LL673 KO-G - crashed at Gittelde, 16 km NE of Northeim, a town straddling the Rhume, some 20 km NNE of Gottingen and DS720 KO-D "all are buried in Hannover war cemetery"

I hope this helps - if you need any details on crew from any of these Lancasters you only have to ask.

Allan
__________________
Allan Hillman
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 9th August 2005, 12:48
ChrisMAg2's Avatar
ChrisMAg2 ChrisMAg2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 230
ChrisMAg2
Re: RAF raid on Brunswick, Jan. 14, 1944

Allan,
thank you very much for your input.

We would indeed have a few additional questions to those with uncertain crash locations:
What units were they?
LL679 JI-J2 and DS767 EQ-Q.
I suppose -as 408 squadron LL699 EQ-C- DS767 EQ-Q also belongs to 408 sq (RCAF), right?
Is LL679 JI-J2 also 514 sq (RAF?)

What is "Chorely's BCL"? A book or a website?

We have found out that this Group had two Halifax bombers also. Would you happen to know, if they suffered caualties in this area and what unit they belonged to?
__________________
Regards
Christian M. Aguilar

Last edited by ChrisMAg2; 9th August 2005 at 18:20.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 9th August 2005, 20:03
Allan125 Allan125 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cornwall/UK
Posts: 244
Allan125 is on a distinguished road
Re: RAF raid on Brunswick, Jan. 14, 1944

Hello Christian

Nice to hear from you - I apologise for not expanding on Chorleys BCL - William (Bill) Chorley has published a series of books entitled "Royal Air Force Bomber Command Losses of the Second World War" in various volumes for each year of the war. They are published by Midland Counties Publications and this volume (1944) is under ISBN 0-904597-91-1 and are very popular as they give a day by day notation of operations, broken down into squadron numerical order, with the loss giving information on the crew (including crew positions) and the reason for the loss (where known).

They also supply background information for the period e.g. the Nurnberg raids between 25 and 31 March 1944.

You should be able to purchase via the WWW - try one of my favourites, http://www.used.addall.com/ as this site searches lots of book sellers and has been successful for me on a number of occasions.

With regard to your comment "we have found out that this Group had two Halifax bombers also. Would you happen to know, if they suffered casualties in this area and what unit they belonged to?" - all losses that night are Lancasters on the Braunschweig operation, with a 300 (Polish) Squadron Wellington loss on a "Gardening" operation (Minelaying). However, if you think they might have been lost around the same time please supply a date and I will be happy to search for you.

Here are more details on the 8 Lancaster II's lost that night.

115 squadron lost 2 Lancaster II's - DS720 KO-D and LL673 KO-G

For KO-D it states: Took Off 1701 Witchford. All are buried in Hannover War Cemetery. Delivered on 16 August 1942, this Lancaster had flown 22 sorties.

For KO-G it states: Took Off 1702 Witchford. Crashed at Gittelde, 16 km NE of Northeim, a town straddling the Rhume, some 20 km NNE of Gottingen. All were laid to rest at Gittelde, since when their bodies have been moved to Hannover War Cemetery.

514 squadron lost 2 Lancaster II's - LL685 JI-G2 and LL679 JI-J2

For JI-G2 it states: Took Off 1706 Waterbeach. Intercepted by a night-fighter and crashed 1905 some 800 metres W of Bennesbostel, 5 km S of Celle, where all were buried on 15 January. Their graves are now in Hannover War Cemetery. P/O Harvey RNZAF had won an immediate DFM while serving with 149 squadron, the citation published on 16 May 1943 paying tribute to his devotion to duty despite being wounded about the head. The awards gained by P/O Thomas RCAF, F/O Sneddon RCAF and P/O Rosher, were gazetted on 14 May, 9 July and 11 June, respectively. (This was a very well decorated crew, only the flight engineer not being decorated).

For JI-J2 it states: Took Off 1722 Waterbeach. All are buried in the Hannover War Cemetery.

408 squadron lost 2 Lancaster II's - LL699 EQ-C and DS767 EQ-Q

For EQ-C it states: Took Off 1700 Linton-on-Ouse. Those who died rest in Hannover War Cemetery, having been brought here immediately following the crash. The Navigator F/O W R Glen RCAF became a POW, the remainder died.

For EQ-Q it states: Took Off 1654 Linton-on-Ouse. All rest in Hannover War Cemetery. WO2 MacLennan RCAF hailed from Fanwood in New Jersey.

432 squadron lost 2 Lancaster II's - DS740 QO-Z and DS850 QO-M

For QO-Z it states: Took Off 1702 East Moor. Crashed at Lagershausen 6 km NE of Northeim. All were laid to rest at Lagershausen since when their bodies have been interred at Hannover War Cemetery.

For QO-M it states: Took Off 1703 East Moor. Hit by IB (Incendiary Bomb - friendly fire!!) over the target which severely wounded Sgt Aplin and caused much structural damage. Petrol tanks were holed and the order to bale out was given, the Lancaster crashing on the Engdener Wuste, E of Nordhorn. The two airmen who died are buried in the Reichswald Forest War Cemetery. F/L Rainville RCAF, the squadrons Gunnery Leader, won his DFM with 419 squadron, details being published on 22 September 1942. Sgt Aplin's parents lived in Kingsford, New South Wales, Australia.

If you need anything further please ask - you can contact me directly on:
allan(dot)hillman(at)btinternet(dot)com (changing the items in brackets to the appropriate symbols)

Hope this helps?

Allan
__________________
Allan Hillman
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10th August 2005, 11:51
ChrisMAg2's Avatar
ChrisMAg2 ChrisMAg2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 230
ChrisMAg2
Re: RAF raid on Brunswick, Jan. 14, 1944

Hi Allen, again thank you for your response.
For now we do have enough information to proceed our research. But we seem to be in a delemma:
We are quite certain about the crash date. Your replies reduce the 7 Lancaster II losses to the three with unidentified crash site. But the remaines that were salvaged (spec. the engines) do not match with the losses. So at the moment we are trying to find out, if we areally are looking on a Lancaster II.
So, if we come up with new facts, I will then contact you again, if you don't mind.
__________________
Regards
Christian M. Aguilar
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10th August 2005, 16:56
Allan125 Allan125 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cornwall/UK
Posts: 244
Allan125 is on a distinguished road
Re: RAF raid on Brunswick, Jan. 14, 1944

Hello Christian

Have you considered putting the information you already have, including the pieces I have sent to you, onto the RAF Commands Bulletin Board. It is http://www.rafcommands.com/ for the site and http://www.rafcommands.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi for the forum and see if anybody there can suggest anything further?

Have you also tried checking German records for the period - local police in the area etc., as well as the German Armed Forces as their records might give you more information ?

I am sure that records exist for this aircraft crashing in Germany - even a Luftwaffe claim for shooting it down probably exists.

Feel free to come back if you need further information on crews etc. Please keep me advised of your progress, I just love being involved in solving a mystery.

Allan
__________________
Allan Hillman
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11th August 2005, 19:35
ChrisMAg2's Avatar
ChrisMAg2 ChrisMAg2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 230
ChrisMAg2
Re: RAF raid on Brunswick, Jan. 14, 1944

Allan,
the crash (not the kill shot by NF) of that plane has been witnessed. But it is uncertain how long the plane was still airborne, after being shot down. The witnessreport says, the plane was on fire already and "plunged" into the ground, were it exploded or burned out. So looking for the area where it was shot down may be difficult.

Anyway we now seem to have a verificationthat our engine was from a L II. The verification is the picture of a gearbox, prop hub and wooden blades of Lancaster MkII LL652 JI-C of 514 sq. that crashed in Belgium in May 28, 1944 and indicates a Bristol Hercules Mk XVI with Rotol hub and wooden blades. So the possibility we really have a L II has risen. The remaining question is for now: which one of the three?
__________________
Regards
Christian M. Aguilar
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
German claims and Allied losses May 1940 Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 19th May 2010 12:13
Me 109 loss on June 21 1944 near Brunswick and Bernoske Roger Gaemperle Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 7 6th March 2007 14:11
Luftwaffe Aces KIA in Normandy in 1944 Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 35 13th August 2005 22:10
Fighter pilots' guts Hawk-Eye Allied and Soviet Air Forces 44 8th April 2005 15:25
56th FG - friendly fire case on 4 May 1943 - info needed Lagarto Allied and Soviet Air Forces 28 13th March 2005 00:33


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net