Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10th March 2008, 15:42
Skyraider3D's Avatar
Skyraider3D Skyraider3D is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Skyraider3D is on a distinguished road
What unit escorted the Ju 88 R "defection"?

The RAF Museum owns a Ju 88 R that "defected" - actually flown by a British agent to Scotland from its unit in Norway. On the way in it is said to have been escorted by RAF Spitfires.

Does anyone know what unit these Spitfires belonged to?
__________________
Please visit my aviation art gallery @ www.aviationart.aero
or view my work on Facebook @ www.facebook.com/aviationart.aero

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10th March 2008, 16:54
ju55dk's Avatar
ju55dk ju55dk is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,071
ju55dk will become famous soon enough
Re: What unit escorted the Ju 88 R "defection"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyraider3D View Post
The RAF Museum owns a Ju 88 R that "defected" - actually flown by a British agent to Scotland from its unit in Norway. On the way in it is said to have been escorted by RAF Spitfires.

Does anyone know what unit these Spitfires belonged to?
The Ju 88 R was not flown by a british agent. It was a defecting NJG-crew, and the spit's were scrambled in order to shoot the intruder down! But the Ju lowered its undercarrige showing that it was surrendering, as the spit's came close! Sadly i do not have the unit!

Junker
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10th March 2008, 17:06
obdl3945's Avatar
obdl3945 obdl3945 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 615
obdl3945 is on a distinguished road
Re: What unit escorted the Ju 88 R "defection"?

Hello again, my friend...

Found the undernoted information at the undernoted address. Even I didn't know we had 165 (Ceylon) Squadron up here in Scotland... what little gems of information one acquires in life... ! (lol) Hope it's useful to you.

The Ju88 was eventually intercepted by aircraft from No.165 (Ceylon) Squadron, flying Spitfire VBs from Peterhead with a detachment at Dyce airfield near Aberdeen. Blue section - 22 year old American, the late Flt Lt (later Sqn Ldr) Arthur Ford `Art' Roscoe DFC in BM515 (blue 1, who passed away 12 March 2006) and Canadian Sgt B R S Scamen (Blue 2) in AB921 were scrambled form Dyce at 1750 with orders to intercept an unidentified aircraft.

www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/collections/aircraft/aircraft_histories/78-AF-953%20Junkers%20Ju88%20R1.pdf

Regards...

ObdL3945
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10th March 2008, 19:01
Skyraider3D's Avatar
Skyraider3D Skyraider3D is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Skyraider3D is on a distinguished road
Re: What unit escorted the Ju 88 R "defection"?

Ah, fantastic info, many thanks!
It also clears up the whole agent/defection confusion. I guess you could say it was a bit of both.

I may be wishing for the moon on a stick here, but does anyone have the fuselage code letters for the mentioned Spitfires - or even photos? I've seen BM515 before as it subsequently served with 322 (Dutch) Sqn. as VL-P, but it would be nice to know what codes it wore with the 165th. SK-something I gather...
__________________
Please visit my aviation art gallery @ www.aviationart.aero
or view my work on Facebook @ www.facebook.com/aviationart.aero

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10th March 2008, 19:22
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,875
Adriano Baumgartner is on a distinguished road
Re: What unit escorted the Ju 88 R "defection"?

Hello Skyraider!
From what I do know, the Captain was indeed a MI6/SIS spy and from what I do have read, it seems he landed a Dornier Do 217 early in 1942 to deliver some special bags full of documents. I tried to find out the truth about those secret landings, but NEVER came around an authentic account of it.
What I do know however is that the father of the Hauptmann in question had contacts with Allied agents. It seems that he even transmited a radio message ( Propaganda ) later, after have landed ( I do not have my personal material with me right now, so please forgive me being so vague, ok? I contacted several Historians about that fact and do have a large amount of information, but at home, some 250km away from where I am now flying...You will have to wait a couple of days for my full reply ).
However, perhaps other acknowledged Historians do have more to say about that flight and that of the misteryous Dornier Do 217 landing at UK!
Yours very friend and sincerely
Adriano Baumgartner
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10th March 2008, 19:25
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,875
Adriano Baumgartner is on a distinguished road
Re: What unit escorted the Ju 88 R "defection"?

Just adding a bit more: YES, OBDL3945 put correctly, it was 165 Squadron who intercepted them...
Early in the 70´s someone wrote a book about this incident. I do have the book, whose tittle my memories did not remember by heart...something like "Most incredible flight" or "Most secret flight"...(Had to check at home, sorry! I do read around 48 books/year, so it is hard to remember all by heart...)
Well, we will keep in touch
Adriano
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10th March 2008, 19:30
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,875
Adriano Baumgartner is on a distinguished road
Re: What unit escorted the Ju 88 R "defection"?

The above mentioned unit was 10./NJG 3
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10th March 2008, 19:56
Skyraider3D's Avatar
Skyraider3D Skyraider3D is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Skyraider3D is on a distinguished road
Re: What unit escorted the Ju 88 R "defection"?

Thanks Adriano! It sure is an intruiging story.

The PDF file from the RAF Museum mentiones a book "Most Secret War" by Prof. Jones.
__________________
Please visit my aviation art gallery @ www.aviationart.aero
or view my work on Facebook @ www.facebook.com/aviationart.aero

Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10th March 2008, 21:01
ju55dk's Avatar
ju55dk ju55dk is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,071
ju55dk will become famous soon enough
Re: What unit escorted the Ju 88 R "defection"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner View Post
Hello Skyraider!
From what I do know, the Captain was indeed a MI6/SIS spy and from what I do have read, it seems he landed a Dornier Do 217 early in 1942 to deliver some special bags full of documents. I tried to find out the truth about those secret landings, but NEVER came around an authentic account of it.
What I do know however is that the father of the Hauptmann in question had contacts with Allied agents. It seems that he even transmited a radio message ( Propaganda ) later, after have landed ( I do not have my personal material with me right now, so please forgive me being so vague, ok? I contacted several Historians about that fact and do have a large amount of information, but at home, some 250km away from where I am now flying...You will have to wait a couple of days for my full reply ).
However, perhaps other acknowledged Historians do have more to say about that flight and that of the misteryous Dornier Do 217 landing at UK!
Yours very friend and sincerely
Adriano Baumgartner

Oblt. Herber Schmid was not an allied spy/agent and neither was his Bf Ofw. Paul Rosenberger with whom Schmid decided to defect. The last crewmember Ofw Erich Kantwill was not told about this. He simply had to follow along. And his father was'ent a spy either. He was a grosser in Nordhausen. Schmid participated in the spanish war in Legion Condor in 1937 with 168 bomberflights!
He had EK 1 and 2, Frontflugspange in Gold, Spanienkreuz in Gold, Cruz de Guerra, Erinnerungsmedaille Östereich and Sudetenland, Verwundeteabzeichen in Schwartz! Yes he did make a propagandaspech in the BBC!

Junker
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11th March 2008, 13:09
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,875
Adriano Baumgartner is on a distinguished road
Re: What unit escorted the Ju 88 R "defection"?

Hi Junkers!
There are a lot of unknown information that were still not being published yet. For example, the rumours about those landings with Do 217.
I know this pilot as Oblt Heinrich Schmidt and yes, do read about him being a spy; although never obtained positive evidences of so. However, why HE simply vanished after the war? Nobody EVER managed to find him. You do have a small account of his mission on the booklet of the German Night Fighter Aces of WW2 from OSPREY. It is said that someone tried to find him around the 1970´s, but did not managed to find his whereabouts.
Maybe some of you do have access to the SIS/MI6 files in UK?!
Yours
Adriano
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ju188 lost in France Eric Larger Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 16 16th December 2011 00:47
Ju 87 in Foreign Service Mirek Wawrzynski Books and Magazines 0 29th November 2005 13:36
KG 30 Losses Sep 39-Mar 40 Chris Goss Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 8 4th September 2005 10:48
Luftwaffe fighter losses in Tunisia Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 47 14th March 2005 05:03
Stuka in Aeroplane II/05. Nice Story and Plenty Errors! Mirek Wawrzynski Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 11 27th January 2005 20:15


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net