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  #21  
Old 30th December 2019, 01:21
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Hi Folks,

Thank you. Special thanks to those, who pointed out the possibility of misidentification of reported claims. I checked the ‘other’ fighter losses of the 5 VA on the days of Hartmann’s claims between October 27 – December 9, 1944. After checking the details found, that Hartmann’s 306. claim: ‘Yak-7’ at 15:30 local, at 98 799 is almost a perfect match to 177 GvIAP La-5F (No.39215187, '87') lost at 15:25 in the same, Kerekegyháza-N area, being downed by a Bf 109! This brings up Hartmann’s victory list to 8 out of his 28 claims in the given time period. This is 28.6% accuracy, but still within the predicted 25-30% range. Applying this average to his 352 claims, this means about 100.7 victories, so he just can stay in the ‘Club 100’ ;-)))))

The two lists of soviet 5 VA fighter losses in this thread therefore list ALL permanent soviet fighter-losses to German AND Hungarian fighters, potential (soviet) friendly fire, flak and accident victims:


305: - STILL OVERCLAIM 27.10.1944 10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m

October 27, 1944:
5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39213433, '33') at 13:55 local, at 300 m, pair of recce. La-5s in the Kecskemét area. 1Lt. Sergei Fedorovich Gukov was hit by flak, belly landed at Kecskemét-NW, 8 km near a lake at Méntelek. Captured, later liberated.

306: - VICTORY! 31.10.1944 15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799 – it was La-5F (S/N: 39215187) around 15:25 local, in the same area!

October 31, 1944:
5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5F (S/N: 39215187, '87') Lost in the Kecskemét-Kerekegyháza area, Gv.Capt. Pavel Yakovlevich Morduhovich was MIA. At 15:25 local, pair of Gv.Capt. Morduhovich - Gv.Lt. Abramov was patrolling in the Kerekegyháza-N area. At 2000 m combat with 2 Fw 190 and 2 Bf 109. Morduhovich attacked the Fw 190s, when the Bf 109 pair got in his tail. His wingman, Gv.Lt. Abramov broke away and has not seen or heard his leader in the radio anymore.

5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN (S/N: 41210105 – metal wing!) free hunting and recce. mission in the Cegléd-Szolnok-Jászapáti area. Lost near Cegléd, Gv.Lt. Alexei Alexandrovich Kunshin was MIA. At 09:25 La-5s of 177 GvIAP were strafing a truck convoy on the road between Szolnok-Cegléd. After the attack Kunshin was missing. Most likely downed by flak, or brought down by the explosion of one of the attacked trucks.

307?: -OVERCLAIM 1.11.1944 14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m

November 1, 1944:
5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 08175) Lost at Lakitelek-NW, Gv.Lt. Alexandr Semenovich Andrianov, bailed out, badly wounded, POW. 8 Yaks, led by Zuev vs. 8 Bf 109 at 4500-6000 m in the Nagykőrös area. Attack on the leading pair.
5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, 1st Sq., Yak-9D (S/N: 18166046) – NOT A LOSS, only damaged in a dogfight, repaired on its airfield!!!

307?: -OVERCLAIM 7.11.1944 13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m

November 7, 1944:
5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39211227, '27') Lost at 15:00 local at Szarvas-SE from a group of 4 La-5, 2 IL-2 from 800 m. Sq. commander, Capt. Mihail Afanasevich Kazanovskii bailed out, his La-5FN went down in flames.

308: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 89 ---: at 5.000m
309: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m
310: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m
311: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m


November 13, 1944:
5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN, 3rd Sq. (S/N: 41210201 – metal wing!) lost at Újszász in a sharp, turning dogfight with Heinz Ewald near the frontline at low, deadly altitude. Heroic soviet pilot, Gv.Lt. Boris Georgievich Kalinin (1922-1944), who alone accepted the turning duel from his flight of four La-5 with Heinz Ewald, was KIA. Burning crash seen on the swampy shore of the Tisza river. Radial engine (S/N: 8212559) recovered in September, 2007, restored, now on display in our Szolnok Aircraft Museum.

312: 14.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m
313: 14.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m


November 14, 1944:
Nothing.

314: 16.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m
315: 16.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m


November 16, 1944:
5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP, 1st Sq., La-5FN (S/N: 39212952, ‘52’) Crashed in a dogfight with Bf 109 fighters at Besenyszög-E, 3 km. Gv.1Lt. Boris Vasilevich Zhigulenkov (famous fighter ace, Hero of Soviet Union) was KIA. 09:45-10:35 local, 5 (3+2) La-5, led by famous fighter ace, 2 x HSU, Gv.Capt. Kirill Alexeevich Evstigneev (3, La-5FN, ‘14’) and Gv.1Lt. Petr Romanovich Setinin (2) in the Jászberény-Pusztamonostor-Jászárokszállás area. Combat with 12 Bf 109, 8 Fw 190. Over Pusztamonostor another 5(6) Bf 109 attacked and hit Zhigulenkov, who crashed at Besenyszög-E, 3 km.

5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-5F (S/N: 39214932, '32') Lost at Nagykáta at 14:00 local. 4 La-5, covering 9 IL-2 of 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP in the Hatvan-Hort-Atkár-Csány area. Combat with 6 ‘Fw 190’ at Nagykáta-NE, 2-3 km at 2400 m. Ml.Lt. Vladimir Mihailovich Olnev was hit, injured, bailed out at 2000 m. On November 20, 1944 he returned to his unit without his plane. This day -according to their diary- the 188 GvSAP IL-2s in 40 missions dropped 26 FAB-100, 25 FAB-50, 56 AO-25, 1838 AO-2.5, 1084 PTAB (anti-tank) bombs, fired 89 RS-82 wing rockets, 4690 (23 mm) cannon-rounds, 7760 SKAS machine gun-rounds.

328: -STILL OVERCLAIM 5.12.1944 13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m
329: -STILL OVERCLAIM 5.12.1944 13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m


December 5, 1944:
5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 3015336, '36') At 15:05 local at 2000 m, 4 Yaks covering 10 IL-2 in the Heréd area met 4 Bf 109. Received hit in the hydraulics system and belly-landed in the Pusztamonostor area. Plane broken, pilot, Lt. Georgii Alexandrovich Ulanov was slightly injured. The soviets gave air support to Gv.St.Lt. Dmitrii Fedorovich Loza’s 46 Guards Tank-Brigade, that was fighting in the Heréd-(Nagy)Kökényes area. This was the very first tank-battle, in which the new, 76 mm M4A2(76)W ’Shermans’ tasted battle and immediately suffered huge losses (eg. Gv.Ml.Lt. Nikolai Fedorovich Zhilin, Gv.Lt. Fedor Ivanovich Dankin, tank-commanders' Shermans, etc.) - in soviet service. The Emchas had not much chance, as the Germans fired from covers, and pushed them in a swampy area, where many sank, and became like 'sitting ducks':

2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080561, turret: ’4 7
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080791, turret: ’4 5
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(75)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3056452, turret: ’4 21
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(75)D ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080322, turret: ’4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080787, turret: ’4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080813, turret: ’4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080847, turret: ’4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080858, turret: ’4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080908, turret: ’4 ??'

(Previously the soviet Shermans were older, 75 mm models.)


5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9T (S/N: 1615383, '83') At 10:12 local, at 1500 m, 6 Yaks covering 10 IL-2 in the Erdőtarcsa area met 8 Bf 109. 4 Bf 109 turned agaisnt the Yaks, 4 against the ILs. Ml.Lt. Mihail Semenovich Yerko went missing.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 1529219, '15') Lost over Ercsi, Jewish Gv.Maj. Yezro Markovich Ravikovich, commander of 151 GvIAP was KIA. At 14:00 local, 8 Yaks (4 Yak-3, 4 Yak-1B), led by Gv.Maj. Ravikovich took off from Kecskemét to cover the Danube river crossings of soviet ground forces in the Ercsi area, south of Budapest. Large groups of enemy planes tried to attack and stop the crossing: Bf 109s, Fw 190s, then (~Rudel’s 10.(Pz)/SG.2) Ju 87G-2 Stukas, covered by Bf 109s, Fw 190s. Yak-3s of Gv.Maj. Yezro Markovich Ravikovich and Gv.St.Lt. Dmitrii Alexeevich Menshikov rolled over, and jumped on the first pair of the Fw 190s, then started to chase a Ju 87G-pair, downing one from each. Ravikovich went to 400-500 m, his wingman, Menshikov to 200 m and lost Ravikovich from his sight. This time they were attacking the Ju 87s. The other 6 Yaks were still busy fighting the enemy fighters South of Ercsi. It is believed, that Ravikovich was hit (either killed, or seriously wounded) in the return fire of the (~SG.2) Stukas. Total claims: 3 Fw 190, 2 Ju 87G, 1 Hs 129 (~14.(Pz)/SG.9). (Lt.Col. Borovoy, Maj. Gavrilin, Gv.Ml.Lt. Lyashin – ’Sword group’.)

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 20153) Lost near Szirák. At 11:00 local, 8 Yak-1, Yak-9, escorting 12 IL-2 of the 809 ShAP in the Erdőtarcsa area. Over the target at 1500 m combat with 8 Bf 109. Ml.Lt. Ivan Arhipovich Guryev went missing. The IL-2s suffered no losses.

5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39211776, '76') Downed by flak, Ml.Lt. Nikolai Lukyanovich Vereshak was unhurt. (His next La-5FN was No.41210115 – metal wing!)

330: -STILL OVERCLAIM 9.12.1944 13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m
331: -STILL OVERCLAIM 9.12.1944 13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m


December 9, 1944:
Nothing.

That’s all. Certainly I did not go that far to think that Hartmann could not see the difference between a twin-engine Boston, a two-seater IL-2, or a small, single engine La-5.

Conclusion: In the given time period, Hartmann had 8 potential victories out of his 28 claims, which represents about 28-29% accuracy. If this is a representative average of his flying career, Erich Hartmann had about 100 real victories during WWII.

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 31st December 2019 at 02:54.
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  #22  
Old 30th December 2019, 15:30
keith A keith A is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Cheers, Nick.

I still think a loss is being linked to a claim in the first three instances irrespective of it being brought together in a later publication. No way does a Blenheim look like a Defiant in any world I inhabit. Distance, light, weather conditions or what have you it seems more likely he was "line-shooting". If he was close enough to his victims to shoot them down then he was close enough to identify a twin-engine light bomber as distinct from a single-engine nightfighter/trainer. A Hurricane I could believe, a Master also but a Blenheim? If his eyesight is that bad should he be piloting a plane or indeed driving a car

Likewise a P-47 doesn't look like a P-47 from any angle so a claim of one for the other doesn't fill me with confidence. It's equally possible that in both cases at the presumed distance the claims were made (on the pilots evidence) that they were Fw190s! I know there a well-argued instances of RAF pilots claims being questioned where a Fw190 is lost but a Bf109 claimed but again I think it's making one event fit another.

The claim for a Lancaster when it's a Condor strikes me as evidence for a court-martial if true. The distinctly non-Lancaster like tail of a Condor is the size of Devon! If he got away with that then he must have been sleeping with Hermann Goering!

I wonder why we accept LW claims as verbatum nine times out of ten? Thrill of combat, disorientation, call it what you like, this makes claims less substantive not allowable because it's a dangerous situation requiring split-second timing. In this case in at least two instances if true the winning pilot wasn't facing any return fire, and was able to stooge around until he got his man. He could have got close enough to hit them with a hammer.

I won't argue further Nick, I have too much respect for your opinion, but we'll have to agree to differ

Sorry Stig, your argument that "we haven't been there so we don't know" is true but it doesn't mean any old nonsense is acceptable because the claimant is brave. I could recite many instances, so could you, where it's been proved that fighter pilots have lied. The nature of fighter pilots is to claim victories on evidence as shallow as a sparrow's hip-bath. Argue facts and accept when they don't match. Don't accept it's a Rhode Island Red if it actually looks very like a duck with a rubber glove on it's head making chicken noises...

regards

"Armchair Eagle" (Keith)
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  #23  
Old 30th December 2019, 18:04
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Keith

There are plenty of documented misidentifiactions that make wonder how they happened, for example Me 110 mistaken for Liberator or Mosquito for Lancaster. This happened, and there is no point in discussing it any further. I recall seeing a gun camera photo what it looked a radial engined fighter. Fortunately there were other shots, proving beyond doubt it was a Me 109G-6. So, really no one should put too much faith with the identification.
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  #24  
Old 30th December 2019, 18:13
Gizmo Gizmo is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Note to victory No. 306. At the same time (15:42, i.e. 12 minutes later) Ltn. Heinz Ewald claimed "ŁaGG-5". Isn't he more likely a candidate for La-5F S/N: 39215187?
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  #25  
Old 30th December 2019, 18:47
keith A keith A is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Para two of my reply, it should read P47 for Typhoon.

Sorry Franek, prove your Me110 was a Liberator (blue on blue?) or your Mosquito was a Lancaster and I will retract. By this I mean not that wreckage for one fitted a combat for the other but that the claimant identified the claim definitively. Markings, crash site. If so then I don't understand why the claim is misidentified. I don't doubt the fallibility of fighter pilots claims is proved but the attribution of loss of their opponents may be.

Show me how a radial engine Fw190 looks like a Bf109? Different engine, wings, tailplane, armament, fuselage....cockpit? Gun camera footage is able to be interpreted I agree but to allocate damage requires distinct circumstances. For example a single target (usually a bomber or recce aircraft) attacked in isolation by one or several fighters. If you are close enough to claim damage then surely you are close enought to identify your target?

I have seen a lot of gun camera footage and the only time I have been in doubt has been when it is impossible to identify an opponent or that the footage was so distant that it shows the claimant may have contributed to the destruction of the object but was so far away that evidence was not conclusive.

regards

Keith
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  #26  
Old 30th December 2019, 19:44
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Keith
Really, I am not sure what you are after. The Liberator was a well known case of Me 110 shot down by Slovak airmen of 13 Letka back in the summer of 1944. The Lancaster (or Halifax not sure) was a Mosquito of No 13 Sqn downed by Warren Peake. More such cases are known, but I am really in no position to list them here.
I cannot show you the photo of the 109, I do not have it handy, but it was taken by F/S Tadeusz Góra in the summer of 1943. Believe it or not, DB 605 was bloody big.

A while ago on the forum there was a lengthy inconclusive discussion on a gun camera photo. There were several voices voting for Ju 87, Fw 190D or even Ta 152.
Mind you, widely available films are those which went through selection, the best of. There are several, however, that the enemy cannot be identified without any doubt, and there is also one important factor. Those films could be shown in slow motion, and paused if necessary. Pilots had no such comfort, fought in adverse conditions, and had no time for lengthy considerations.
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Old 30th December 2019, 20:35
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Just a side-note. Some might ask about Gv.St.Lt. Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov, a 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP Yak-3 pilot, who died on November 16, 1944 and is not listed among the losses of the day. I missed him purposely. The reason is yes, he died on November 16, 1944 indeed, but in a hospital, not in a dogfight. He was downed a few days earlier, on November 7, 1944, so he is listed on that day. Poor pilot was badly burned and died in a few days in hospital, probably of sepsis. I do not know exactly his plane number on November 7, 1944, but the 13 GvIAD HQ (Stab) has erased a Yak-3 from combat service by November 11, 1944 due to a dogfight, - without pilot. Its number was 3229214, '32'. I assume that this 150 GvIAP pilot borrowed and flew this Yak-3 of his Division Stab, not an official 150 GvIAP plane, so this is what I listed for him on November 7, 1944: 3229214.

32 = Plane number within batch, also the factory applied tactical marking
292 = Factory No.292 in Saratov, Russia
14 = Batch No.14

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 31st December 2019 at 04:18.
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  #28  
Old 30th December 2019, 20:36
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Thanks Gizmo, what are the exact circumstances of his claim? Time, location, etc.?

Gabor
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  #29  
Old 30th December 2019, 21:03
Gizmo Gizmo is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

I was based on the most used files made by Tonny Wood.
Unfortunately, for this day there is no data as to the places of shooting down, but it looks like it's the same fight of 7. Staffel. There is also another candidate in the person of Hptm. Sturm, who claimed two La-5.

31.10.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sturm 5./JG 52 LaGG-5 �� 15.18 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 935
31.10.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sturm 5./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 15.23 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 936
31.10.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sturm 5./JG 52 LaGG-5 �� 15.26 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 937
31.10.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sturm 5./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 15.28 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 938
31.10.44 Ltn. Peter Düttmann 6./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 08.21 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Hptm. Erich Hartmann 7./JG 52 Yak-7 �� 15.30 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Ltn. Heinz Ewald 7./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 15.37 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Ltn. Heinz Ewald 7./JG 52 LaGG-5 �� 15.42 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Ltn. Peter Düttmann 6./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 14.17 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Ltn. Peter Düttmann 6./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 14.19 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
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  #30  
Old 30th December 2019, 21:45
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Gizmo, on October 31, 1944 the 5 VA, 14 GvIAD (177, 178, 179 GvIAPs) has lost two La-5s from 177 GvIAP:

Lavochkin La-5F, №39215187 (white '87'), engine: №6504058 - гв.к-н Мордухович Павел Яковлевич (№048366, MIA) "В 17:25 пара Мордухович-Абрамов на Н-2000 м встретили 2 ФВ-190 и 2 Ме-109. Мордухович атаковал пару ФВ, не замечая, что МЕ атаковали его. Абрамов, отбивая их Атаки, Абрамов вошел в облачность и потерял ведущего. Не видел и не слышал по радио." - 17:25 is Moscow time, 15:25 local. Mission flown in Kecskemét-Kerekegyháza area. Time 15:30 (only 5 mins. diff.!) and area 98 799 in Hartmann's claim is exactly Kerekegyháza-N! You decide, whichever is closer in time and space...


Lavochkin La-5FN, №41210105 (white '05'), engine: №8212379 - гв.л-т Куншин Алексей Александрович (№048372, MIA) - "Свободная охота с разведкой Цеглед, Ясапати, Сольнок. 11:25 Штурмовали жд состав на дороге Цеглед-Сольнок, ведомый одновременно штурмовал автоколонну Цеглед-Сольнок. Ведомый утерял Куньшина, выходившего разворотом вправо и больше не видел. Через 5 минут полета ведомый наблюдал в этом районе очаг пожара, предположительно горел самолет."

The other Lavochkin division of 5 VA (279 IAD: 92, 192, 486 IAPs) suffered no permanent AC losses this day. Therefore any La-5 claim in the op. area of 5 VA that exceeds 2 planes should be considered overclaim.

See brief summary of both losses in 177 GvIAP diary on October 31, 1944.
Gabor
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