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  #11  
Old 30th October 2020, 03:15
SteveR SteveR is offline
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Re: What time was Alfred Budde killed?

Did a bit more sleuthing around.

AFAIK there were only 2 combats involving Spitfires in NWE on 27 Dec. 44. 412 Squadron was bounced at Rheine Airdrome by two (in the Combat Report) or three (in the Form 540) Me-109s; F/L Fox claimed to have shot down one. Time of the encounter isn't given in the Combat Report but Foreman, in his Fighter Command Victory Claims book, gives the time as 1151 +/-.

Of more interest is 411 Squadron. Three claims for Me-109s destroyed were submitted; again, times are not given, Foreman has them at 1110 +/-. Locations given in the Combat Reports are Malmedy St. Vith area, Malmedy/St. Vith, and Malmedy area. Each of the Combat Reports describes seeing a fight between P-38s and enemy single-engine aircraft with 411 Squadron then getting involved.

The Form 540 has a (possibly important) difference though, in that it states that "the Squadron joined in a fight between Thunderbolts, Mustangs, and Lightnings against Me. 109's."(sic)

Soon as I get a chance I'll check P-47 claims.

To be continued...
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  #12  
Old 30th October 2020, 18:26
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Teresa Maria Teresa Maria is offline
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Re: What time was Alfred Budde killed?

Dear Steve,

Thank you very, very much for the new information! I will be waiting for the continuation. :-)
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  #13  
Old 31st October 2020, 00:20
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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What time was Alfred Budde killed?

Hello all

Some time ago I came across this rather unusual photograph of what appears to be the fighter the subject of this thread was flying when on his last mission. Unfortunately, I have no information when or where this was taken nor who are the men that appear in it.

https://ibb.co/cTKp7Mq

I hope that you find it as interesting as I did.

Horrido!

Leo
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  #14  
Old 31st October 2020, 00:42
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
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Re: What time was Alfred Budde killed?

"Our man" is on the left.....

J.
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  #15  
Old 1st November 2020, 13:46
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Teresa Maria Teresa Maria is offline
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Re: What time was Alfred Budde killed?

Dear Leo,
Dear John,

Thank you very much for the photo and for the explanation. I thought Afred Budde had been taller; in an earlier post, you wrote he had been 1.76 metres tall. (Unless the other pilots were even taller...)
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  #16  
Old 3rd November 2020, 00:09
SteveR SteveR is offline
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Re: What time was Alfred Budde killed?

With the times given by John and Michel, crash locations given by yourself and Michel, and "Spitfires and Thunderbolts," I had hoped to find the P-47 Group(s) involved and then find a Combat Report or secondary source in which a P-47 pilot stated seeing a s/e fighter suffering the sort of catastrophic failure described.

Using Frank Olynyk's USAAF (European Theater) Credits for the Destruction of Enemy Aircraft in Air-to-Air Combat World War 2, in an area bounded by Malmedy, Bitburg, Koblenz, and Bonn:

48th FG has 10 claims (of all types) over Me-109s and 2 over Fw-190s, all timed at 1035 hours, all given as "St. Vith area."

405th FG one (unconfirmed) claim for a Fw-190 destroyed at 1110 hours, location is "L-1063, W of Bitburg."

366th FG one (unconfirmed) claim for a Fw-190 destroyed at 1115 hours, location "25 miles SE of Liege" and one claim for a Me-109 damaged at 1120 hours, location "P-7585."

Unfortunately I have no secondary sources for those 3 units and I haven't found any of the Combat Reports for them on the internet. Maybe someone else can help?

In the same timeframe and area there were quite a few claims from three P-51 equipped Groups - the 352nd, 357th, and 364th. I've checked a dozen or so of the P-51 Combat Reports and so far found nothing that stands out as a Luftwaffe fighter suffering catastrophic failure without being fired upon, though two of them from the 364th might indicate that kind of failure after being hit buy fire from the American pilot.

If a more precise time for Budde's loss is ever to be determined it's likely a statement from one of his fellow Luftwaffe pilots will have to be found I'm afraid.
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  #17  
Old 3rd November 2020, 08:18
SteveR SteveR is offline
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Re: What time was Alfred Budde killed?

Found something else after all.

From To Win the Winter Sky: Air War Over the Ardennes, 1944-1945 by Danny S. Parker, p. 330:

"...IV/JG 54 flew sorties with JG 26 and JG 27th (sic) to provide ground support over the Ardennes battlefield. High over St. Vith, the armored Fw-190 A-8s fought an unequal duel with a group of P-47s, losing four of their number without inflicting loss on their enemy. Lt. Alfred Budde, an experienced commander, did not come back to Vörden. Others did not return either: Uffz. Hervert Muller-Welt, Lt. Hans-Georg Baur-Bargehr, and Oblt. Ludwig Drexler were all listed as missing."

So it seems that Lt. Budde fell in combat with P-47s of the 48th FG at approximately 1035 hours, with Spitfires of 411 Squadron also engaged nearby, all in the vicinity of St. Vith.
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  #18  
Old 3rd November 2020, 08:54
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
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Re: What time was Alfred Budde killed?

It is difficult to say. Actual crashsites of the Budde Schwarm was near Nürburg, some 50 Kilometres east of St.Vith. Furthermore the remaining surviving pilot stated that the Schwarm was in combat with Spitifires, at least initially. On the other hand, IV./JG 54 did claim P-47's around the same time.

J.

Last edited by John Manrho; 8th November 2020 at 00:35. Reason: Typo & Typo
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  #19  
Old 7th November 2020, 22:24
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Teresa Maria Teresa Maria is offline
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Re: What time was Alfred Budde killed?

Thank you very much for the information. I haven't been able to find Nürnburg anywhere. Google automatically shows Nuremberg instead. Even if I set the language to German, I get Nürnberg, not Nürnburg,.
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  #20  
Old 7th November 2020, 22:57
René Brachten René Brachten is offline
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Re: What time was Alfred Budde killed?

Hi,

I think John means Nürburg.

René
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