Max Stotz's claims for 19 Feb 1943

[Nokose]

On the 19 Feb 1943 Lt. Max Stotz of 4./JG 54 shot down two Il-2 at 11:52 and 11:54. Can anyone give me the exact victory numbers of these two aircraft for him. Maj. "Assi" Hahn also shot down an Il-2 at 11:50 which I believe was his 107th victory. www.Luftwaffe.cz gives the date as the 11 Feb 1943 which is wrong. Also would be interested if the book on Hahn has anything to say about this victory on this date.

[Monaco]

JV 9/III (Prien) has Stotz´s claims on 27.01.43 at 151 and Hahn´s at 101; counting down (based on J. perry´s list) I come also to 107 for Hahn on 19.02.43 and to 159 for Stotz:

27.01.43 Ltn. Max Stotz: 151 4./JG 54 LaGG-3 10 752: at 1.200 m. 10.42 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 588
09.02.43 Ltn. Max Stotz: 152 4./JG 54 LaGG-5 10 161: at 2.000 m. 10.10 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 596
09.02.43 Ltn. Max Stotz: 153 4./JG 54 LaGG-5 10 123: at 500 m. 10.12 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 597
09.02.43 Ltn. Max Stotz: 154 4./JG 54 Curtiss P-40 00 421: at 2.000 m. 13.12 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 598
11.02.43 Ltn. Max Stotz: 155 4./JG 54 Curtiss P-40 00 281: at 1.800 m. 09.51 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 599
11.02.43 Ltn. Max Stotz: 156 4./JG 54 LaGG-3 00 282: at 1.300 m. 09.54 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 600
11.02.43 Ltn. Max Stotz: 157 4./JG 54 Curtiss P-40 00 273: at 100 m. 10.06 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 602
19.02.43 Ltn. Max Stotz: 158 4./JG 54 Il-2 28 354: at 800 m. 11.52 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 611
19.02.43 Ltn. Max Stotz: 159 4./JG 54 Il-2 28 441: at 800 m. 11.54 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 612


27.01.43 Maj. Hans Hahn: 101 Stab II./JG 54 LaGG-3 10 111: at 50 m. 10.43 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 181
09.02.43 Maj. Hans Hahn: 102 Stab II./JG 54 Curtiss P-40 00 422: at 2.000 m. 13.10 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 182
09.02.43 Maj. Hans Hahn: 103 Stab II./JG 54 Curtiss P-40 00 434: at 1.000 m. 13.11 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 183
11.02.43 Maj. Hans Hahn: 104 Stab II./JG 54 Curtiss P-40 00 283: at 1.500 m. 09.52 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 184
11.02.43 Maj. Hans Hahn: 105 Stab II./JG 54 Curtiss P-40 00 263: at 800 m. 09.58 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 185
11.02.43 Maj. Hans Hahn: 106 Stab II./JG 54 LaGG-3 00 271: at 50 m. 10.08 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 186
19.02.43 Maj. Hans Hahn: 107 Stab II./JG 54 Il-2 28 351: at 1.200 m. 11.50 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 187

[Nokose]

Thank you Monaco. That was a great help.

[Monaco]

Any time,
BTW do you have anything of the soviet side to that roaming supposedly deadly duo (= real losses that could be attributed to their claims)?

Regards

[Nokose]

Hahn is difficult and his last combat victory he didn't actually file the claim (He was a POW).

[Nokose]

Monaco,
I think that Hahn's claiming in Russia and his influence on Stotz lets say led to some bad claims. On the 26 Jan 1943 from 5 LaGG-3 of the 3 GIAP KBF during their dogfight at 14:00 they claimed all five. In reality they shot down one and that could be a joint or one of the claims of Stotz over Lake Ladoga. It was definite that they were trying to reach 100 and 150 in their scores. The Soviets also over claimed in that fight. I would really like to know how many of Hahn's western victories could be matched up.

[christian]

Hi

In a diary from a Pilot from the 4.Staffel:

23.02.1943
......Unser Lt. Stotz (161 Abschüsse) erhält die 5.Staffel.

Greetings Christian

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

I have full lists for both.

Stotz 158th and 159th on this date. Hahn 105th.

I agree with the 161st, he didn't claim on this day, but had his 161st on 21st February 1943, and his 162nd bot until 21st May 1943. Total 182. total for Hahn 106.

I have been reliably informed that Stotz was a honest claimer until the company of Hahn, whether or not his claims are honest or not he had 182 officially confirmed. We have all been led to believe 189 is the total. In the Oetersehen musuem it states 183, I have 182 confirmed and one unconfirmed. 175 over Russian 8 over the West.

With Hahn 62 over the West, 44 over Russia.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

Many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. I recall reading some time ago an article by Christer Bergström about the air war during the Battle of Velikiye Luki and I got the impression that Hans Philipp in addition to Hahn and Stotz over-claimed heavily at this time. Have any of you seen any evidence that this was so? Any comments would be more then welcome.

Horrido!

Leo

[Nokose]

It can't be said that Stotz and Hahn were afraid to go into combat. As the incident on the 26 Jan 1943 (above) is confirmed by the Soviet naval pilots of two against five. I'm compiling a history for myself on JG 54 for 1942 and 1943 as source material becomes available (which is slow).

As everyone knows Walter Nowotny is not as great a pilot as his record indicated. In one instance it appears he was a wingman and made several claims after his leader went down (none of them true and even filed a claim for his lost comrade). I still don't understand how they became confirmed. That's not to say all of his claims are bad.

Leo, There seems to have been a book written during the war about Hans Philipp's called "PHILLIPP, Der Jagdflieger Hans Philipp sein Leben Seine Erfolge von 1943". I would like to see that to try and match some of story to his claims but it might have been written by a ghostwriter.

Really creditable so far JG 54 pilots were Hannes Trauloft, Joachim Wandel and Reinhard Seiler.