Fiat G.55 vs. ___________

[Squeelig]

Italy left the field of combat in September of 1943. At that time, there were Fiat G.55's in service on the front lines, although the number was but a few.

In September of 1943, was there any fighter in service of any nation that was superior to the G.55 in a dogfight?

[Graham Boak]

Originally Posted by Squeelig

Italy left the field of combat in September of 1943. At that time, there were Fiat G.55's in service on the front lines, although the number was but a few.

In September of 1943, was there any fighter in service of any nation that was superior to the G.55 in a dogfight?

Well, we could start with the Zero and the Oscar, continue with the Yak 9 and La.5, go on to the Spitfire Mk.5 or Mk.9, and add the Fw.190.

It does rather depend what you mean by a "dogfight", but this normally refers to a close-quarters attempt to outturn the opponent. I know of no reason to suppose that the G.55, nice aircraft though it was, was superior to these contemporaries in such close-quarters manoeuvring combat. Indeed, it would be in trouble trying to classically "dogfight" earlier Italian types such as the MC 200 and CR 42. If you extend the battle arena outside those parameters, to include high-energy tactics, then the Japanese and Russian types drop out as does the Mk.V Spit, but the P-51B, P-47 and Bf 109G would at least equal if not exceed the overall performance of the Fiat.

Such matters do rather tend to be subjective rather than objective, but if you rank contemporaries using parameters such as wing loading (low weight divided by wing area, low = good in turns) and power loading (power over weight, high = good in accelerations/climbs), max. speed (including variation with altitude) and climb rates, you can go some way towards a more objective judgement. If you can find a convincingly unbiased set of performance data for all types.

IMHO, the G.55 was a good fighter for its time, but not exceptional.

[Squeelig]

In December 1942 a technical commission of the Regia Aeronautica was invited by Luftwaffe to test some German aircrafts in Rechlin. The visit was part of a joint plan for the standardization of the Axis aircraft production. At the same time some Luftwaffe officers visited Guidonia where they were particularly interested in the performances promised by the Serie 5's. On December 9th, these impressions were discussed in a Luftwaffe staff meeting and raised the interest of Goering itself.

In February 1943 a German test commission was sent in Italy to evaluate the new Italian fighters. The commission was led by Oberst Petersen and was formed by Luftwaffe officers and pilots and by technical personnel, among them, the Flugbaumeister Malz. The Germans carried with them also several aircrafts included a Fw190A and a Me109G for direct comparison tests in simulated dogfights.

The tests began on February 20th. The German commission, not without a certain surprise, was very impressed by the Italian aircraft, the G55 in particular. In general, all the Serie 5's were very good at low altitudes, but the G55 was more than competitive with its German opponents also in terms of speed and climb rate at high altitudes while still maintaining superior handling characteristics. The definitive evaluation by the German commission was "excellent" for the G55, "good" for the Re2005 and "average" for the MC205. Oberst Petersen defined the G55 "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Goering. After listening to the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Goering on February 22nd voted to produce the G55 in Germany.

The interest of the Germans, apart from the good test results, derived also from the developmental possibilities they was able to see in the G55 and in the Re2005. For the Re2005, the German interest resulted in the provision of an original DB605 with the new WM injection. This engine and a VDM propeller were installed on the MM495 prototype that was acquired by Luftwaffe and tested in Rechlin. The aircraft reached 700 km/h during a test with a German pilot, but the airframe was not judged sufficiently strong for these performances.

The G55 was bigger and heavier and was considered a very good candidate for the new DB603 engine. Other visits were organized in Germany during March and May 1943 in Rechlin and Berlin. The G55 was again tested at Rechlin at the presence of Milch. Gabrielli and other FIAT personalities were invited to visit German factories to discuss the evolution of the aircraft. The specifications of the German G55/II included the DB603 engine, five 20 mm guns and a pressurized cockpit. The suggestion of weapons in the wings, limited to one 20 mm gun for each wing, originated the final configuration of the Serie I, while the 603 engine was succesfully installed in the G56 prototypes.

As a concrete results of the German interest in the G55, the Luftwaffe acquired three complete G55 Sottoserie 0 airframes (MM91064-65-66) for evaluations and experiments giving in change three DB603 engines and original machinery for the setup of other production lines of the DB605/RA1050 RC58 I. Two of the Luftwaffe G55's remained in Turin, at the Aeritalia plants, where they were used by German and Italian engineers to study the planned modifications and the possible optimizations to the production process. Later these two were converted to Serie I and delivered to the ANR. The third one was transferred to Rechlin for tests and experiments in Germany. The DB603 engines were used to build the G56 prototypes.

The interest in the G55 program was still high after the Armistice: in October 1943 Kurt Tank, who previously personally tested a G55 in Rechlin, was in Turin to discuss about the G55 production. However, war events and the not yet optimized production process were the reasons for which the G55 program was eventually abandoned by the Luftwaffe. Early produced G55's required about 15000 manhours; while there were estimations to reduce the effort to about 9000 manhours, the German factories were able to assemble a Bf109 in only 5000 manhours.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Dear Squeelig

Pls quote your sources. I doubt you were one of the staff that tested the G.55 , so for all our interest, please quote your source(s)

Cheers
Stig

[Squeelig]

I searched for it before I posted it and can't seem to find the link to where it was sourced from. I cut and pasted the above from the ww2aircraft.net forum where a reputable person had it in his post.

I think I may have the link on my computer at work. I seem to recall that it came from a site concerning Italian aircraft. I'll check and provide it if it is there.

Otherwise, you can take it or leave it as unsourced, unverifiable and unreliable information. I understand.

[Squeelig]

With a little searching, I found it. Click on "Serie 5 Fighters" Sources are provided under "References"

http://xoomer.alice.it/g55/G55his.htm

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thank You Squeelig

Cheers
Stig

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Squeelig

Italy left the field of combat in September of 1943.

Well actually, Italy didn't leave the field and nor did the G.55. The type fought on with the Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana into August 1944: the Iº Gruppo Caccia still had 18 G.55 (9 serviceable) on 31 July.

As for its quality, there's this from the diary of Stab JG 77 (my translation):

"27.5.44 Display for the Luftflotte. Macchi a good plane against fighters, FIAT G.55 a tired ship. Despite that, Macchis are running out and the G.55 will continue to be built!"

[veltro]

Also, if I may add my opinion, this "urge" to determine if a fighter was better or "the best" has little sense. The Fiat G.55 probably - in the right hands - was a good fighter , but certainly not an overall best.

It was built for medium to high quote fighting (see its large wing) but when it entered combat (and I mean serious combat in average quantities, namely in the ANR) it had to dogfight against P-51s, P-47s and P-38s and it was in the hands of pilots who had almost no training in "energy" fighting and which had always been taught that "manoeuvrability" was the key...

This could be a good advice flying a fighter like the Macchi C.205, certainly not for something like the Fiat G.55.

For a certain period, 1° Gruppo Caccia ANR even flew mixed formations of C.205s and G.55s and, although the mix could have been interesting if proper tactics had been developed, none was, so that both were used with the same tasks, a clearly improper use...

So the question will never be answered, because to determine the qualities of a fighter, one has to consider the first and foremost part of it: its pilot, the training he was supplied and his experience. Without taking into consideration this element, the rest is only (when available) a series of tables, datas and numbers which cannot be the key to a solution.

All the above, IMHO, of course...

[Squeelig]

Veltro said, "...certainly not an overall best."

Oberst Petersen said, "the best fighter in the Axis"

It appears that none other than Oberst Petersen himself would disagree with you based on the results of actual tests that were carried out.

To quote Stig Jarlevik, "I doubt you were one of the staff that tested the G.55"

I hope you are not offended if I take Oberst Petersen's word over yours, rendered from the keyboard on your desk.

Nick, that is interesting. There is wide agreement that the Fiat G.55 was a better fighter than the Macchi Mc-205. Could you have mis-translated the word "tired"? Italy ceased to be an axis combatant country in September of 1943. The co-belligerant forces were just that, forces in parts of the country occupied by Germany. Italy was no longer an axis country. Yes, combat by the co-belligerant forces continued.