Two unidentified Flak claims Mannheim 5-6 September 1943

[Theo Boiten]

Dear all,

I have two Flak claims at Mannheim on the night of 5-6 September 1943 for which I have been unable to find matching Bomber Command losses, who can help:

A Stirling Flak claim at Mannheim-Rheinau at 00.05 hrs
A Lancaster Flak claim at Mannheim-Benz at 00.06 hrs.

Cheers, Theo

[Alex Smart]

Hello Theo,
I don't know if you have rejected the idea that these aircraft may not have been Downed by Flak ?
Also maybe a Flak team claimed a couple of aircraft that were also claimed by Luftwaffe pilots ?
So I offer two that I came across in the ancient Tony Woods files.

2Km South East of MANNHEIM
00.05
LANCASTER
6/JG300
Fw.Kofler.

and

6Km South of MANNHEIM
00.07
HALIFAX
Stab/JG300
Fw.Ullrich Veh.

Maybe a Flak team also claimed for these two aircraft ?

Alex

[Alex Smart]

To follow up,
There were nine(9) Stirling III's lost on the night of 5/6 September, 1943 according to Chorley's RAF Bomber Command Losses 1943.they were all on an Op to Mannheim.

75 Sqdn
EE893 - JN⊙N
Crashed Schwanheim, 4 Km WNW of Bensheim, 4 Kia, 3 POW.

90 Sqdn
EF129 - WF⊙Q
Crashed at Limbergerhof, some 7 Km SSW of Ludwigshafen, 7 Kia.

149 Sqdn
BF477 - OJ⊙B
Crashed, (engine failure ) at Sorbon(Ardennes), 5 Km NNW of Rethel, France.

149 Sqdn
BK711 - OJ⊙O
Shot down, dual Flak and night fighter. Crashed near Hockenheim, 4 Kia, 3 POW.

149 Sqdn
EE872 - OJ⊙N
Shot down by night fighter, Crashed near Ludwigshafen, 6 Kia, 1 POW.

196 Sqdn
EE964 - ZO⊙F
Crashed at Bachenau, 16 Km NNW of Heilbronn. 7 Kia, 1 POW.

196 Sqdn
EE973 - ZO⊙U
Hit by Flak over Speyer, lost Starboard outer engine. Crash Landed back in the UK, 1 injured.

620 Sqdn
EH931 - QS⊙O
Shot down by night fighter, aircraft exploded and crashed at Altdorf, 16 Km WSW of Speyer, 4 Kia, 4 POW.

623 Sqdn
EH878 - IC⊙I
Shot down by night fighter, Crashed at Schonborn, 4 Km SW of Simmern, 6 Kia, 1 POW.

Alex

[Theo Boiten]

Hello Alex,

Many thanks for your elaborate replies. Yes, I've taken into account that the two Flak claims may well have been contested by (single or twin-engined) night fighters, as was the case in many instances during the late summer and fall of 1943. I have analysed all of the known to me crash locations including the ones that you mention, but none appear to match the two Flak claims at 00.05 and 00.06 hrs ...

Cheers, Theo

[Alex Smart]

Hi Theo,
Perhaps the Lancaster claim was a mis-identified Halifax ?

So these are the Halifax losses for the 5/6 September 1943.

10 Sqn - Halifax II - JD322 - Germany.
51 Sqn - Halifax II - JD263 - Germany.
76 Sqn - Halifax V - DK223 - Germany.
76 Sqn - Halifax V - EB240 - UK.
77 Sqn - Halifax II - JB839 - Germany.
77 Sqn - Halifax II - JB970 - Germany.
78 Sqn - Halifax II - HR874 - Germany.
78 Sqn - Halifax II - JB872 - France.
78 Sqn - Halifax II - JD475 - Germany.
78 Sqn - Halifax II - LW229 - Germany.
405 Sqn - Halifax II - HR810 - Germany.
419 Sqn - Halifax II - JD210 - Germany.
419 Sqn - Halifax II - JD410 - Germany.
427 Sqn - Halifax II - LK636 - Germany.

Alex

[rafcommands]

Hi Theo,

AIR14/3460 contains details of aircraft damaged by flak and fighters.

For Stirling damaged by Flak
75/G EE881 Cat B
90/A EH944
90/P BK784
90/W EF426
196/U EE973 Cat E (mainly due to incendiary bomb from friendly aircraft)

Ross

[rafcommands]

Lancaster damaged by flak

103/G ED881
57/U W4797
207/T R5963
156/B JB113
156/F JB179

Of all types 1 Cat B + 1 Cat E and 16 or 18 a/c in total are recorded as having returned with Flak damage

16 a/c recorded as returning with fighter damage.

Drop me a PM with email if you want a dropbox of the page or file
Ross

[Alex Smart]

Hello Ross,
Thank you for the AIR14 details, hadn't thought of looking ��
As an aside , Have you any new details of the "Avro Lancaster and Manchester Bombers with Unknown Crash Sites" by L.T.Wright dated August 2010.
There are two Lancasters listed for the 6th September '43. JB118(OL⊙R) 7 Kia and DV182(ZN⊙ ) 7 Kia,1Pow.
Thinking that these Lancaster 's could answer part of Theo's questions.
Alex

[Theo Boiten]

Hi Ross and Alex,

Thanks for your further suggestions and input, all much appreciated -I have worked though all of these but failed to find any matches to the two Flak claims I'm afraid.

Re Alex's two Lancaster questions (There are two Lancasters listed for the 6th September '43. JB118(OL⊙R) 7 Kia and DV182(ZN⊙ ) 7 Kia,1Pow):
JB118 crashed twixt Esthal and Elmstein
DV182 crashed at/near Landau/Pfalz

Cheers, Theo

[Alex Smart]

Thanks Theo,
So not DV182 or JB118 then.

As there does not seem to be any other Lancaster, Halifax or Stirling lost on the night of the 5/6 th September '43 other than those listed in my earlier posts, then I can only suggest that the two you seek may be listed under either the 5th or the 6th September '43 losses.

Alex