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Old 7th October 2013, 00:20
DIscotraxxx DIscotraxxx is offline
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[Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !)

Hi,

This is my first post on the forum, and I thank you in advance for your help.
I’m pretty sure that I did some mistakes…

I started to work on the crashes of November 23, 1939 in France because a french veteran I know was the witness of the Boulay-Moselle / Macker crash. Then I wanted to know more about the 7 other crashes, especially the other He 111 crash in Königsmacker.

Many infos are still missing for those 8 crashes, and I still have a two major problems :

- crew, unit and location of Plane 1 and Plane 4 may be inverted (Do 17)

- crew, unit and location of Plane 2 and Plane 5 may be inverted (He 111)

I was also unable to find infos on the graves of 7 aircrew members KIA on November 23, 1939 (Plane 1, Place 4, Plane 5).
I contacted the Niederbronn-Les-Bains cemetary and I hope they will confirm me that the two other crew members of Plane 1 are buried near Alfred Winter. I also asked them if they can give me the names of all the german soldiers killed on November 23, 1939 in their cemetery.

I don’t have any infos on the three crew members of Plane 8 who escaped to Switzerland.
Maybe the best would be to contact the swiss authorities ?

See You

Vince



*********************************************



LUFTWAFFE RECONNAISSANCE PLANES SHOOT DOWN OVER FRANCE ON NOVEMBER 23, 1939




Study by Vincent DOMERGUE


With the help of Loïc BECK and Robert SOULAT


On November 23, 1939, 8 german reconnaissance airplanes were shoot down over France.

2 planes were He 111, and 6 planes were Do 17.
- One Do 17 from Stab/KG2 by the two 73 Squadron Hurricanes I,
- One He 111 from Stab/KG53 shot down by two 73 Squadron Hurricanes I,
- One Do 17 from 3.(F)/122 shot down by one 73 Squadron Hurricane I,
- One Do 17 from 3.(F)/22 shot down by two 1 Squadron Hurricanes I,
- One He 111 from 2.(F)122 shot down by six allied airplanes (two 1 Squadron Hurricanes I, one 73 Squadron Hurricane I, 3 GC II/5 Curtiss H-75A),
- One Do 17 from 4.(F)/122 shot down by three 1 Squadron Hurricanes I,
- One Do 17 from 5.(F)/122 shot down by two GC II/6 Morane Saulnier 406,
- One Do 17 from 1.(F)/123 shot down by one GC II/3 Morane Saulnier 406.

One the 26 german crew members :
- 13 were KIA (7 unidentified graves),
- 10 were made POW in France,
- 3 escaped to Switzerland in which they were retained up to June 1940 (identities unknown).

We have to notice that the first articles were made on November 24 (“Le Figaro” for example) and that the 8 crashes were “fully” documented with only a few errors (model of airplane, location, and who shoot down the german airplanes).
The Royal Air Force power was clearly shown with 6 of the 8 aircrafts that were shoot down.

The french newsreel “Journal de guerre N°9 / November 24 1939” showed some of the planes shoot down on November 23, but also on November 21.
http://www.ecpad.fr/journal-de-guerre-9-semaine-du-24-novembre-1939
14.40>14.43 : “Le Figaro” November 25, 1939 headline
14.44> 15.19 : Plane 3, Do 17P shot down by Kain, November 23, 1939
15.20>15.53 : unidentified Do 17 (maybe Plane 1 or Plane 4 ?)
15.54>17.35 : unidentified Do 17 (maybe Plane 1 or Plane 4 ?)
16.30>17.00 : Do 17P from 3.(F)/22 shot down on November 21, 1939 (the crew was able to land safely the Do 17, and was taken POW) by Sergent Edouard Salès (shown at the end of the film !) and Sous-Lieutenant René Trémolet from GC II/5 (Curtiss H-75A).
http://www.cieldegloire.com/004_sales_e.php
The wreckage of this Do 17 was heavily photographied and filmed, and was taken back to Paris. It is shown for example in “Match” magazine N°74 from November 30, 1939.

NOTA : two Do 17 crash sites are presented (15.20>15.53 then 15.54>17.53) and those can be the two Do 17 planes listed as Plane 1 and Plane 4.
Both crash sites show heavily destroyed wreckages.
It can’t be :
2) He 111 crashed in plain (pictures don’t match)
3) already shown in the newsreel (14.44>15.19)
5) He 111 crashed in plain (pictures don’t match)
6) Do 17 landed safely in plain, pilot unhurt
7) Do 17 landed in plain, crew unhurt (pictures don’t match)
8) Do 17 crashed and the crew was able to escape to Switzerland (pictures seemed to not match)
No other Do 17 was shot down over France the previous days.


*********************************************

Plane 1 : Do 17Z
Unit : Stab/KG2
Werk Nummer : ???
Identification code : ???
Crew 1 : Oberleutnant Alfred Winter, KIA [buried in Niederbronn-Les-Bains, Block 33 Reihe 11 Grab 412]
Crew 2 : ???, KIA [buried in Niederbronn-Les-Bains ?]
Crew 3 : ???, KIA [buried in Niederbronn-Les-Bains ?]

Date : November 23, 1939 (2 PM)
Crash site : Audun-Le-Roman / Sancy / Trieux

Picture in have : ???

Attaqued by :
Capitaine Jean Accart from GC I/5 (Curtiss H-75A)

Shoot down by :
Flying Officer John Evelyn “???” Scoular from 73 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Sergeant John “???” Winn from 73 Squadron (Hurricane I)

Notas :
A) Scoular said that he visited the crash site, but said it was in "Hagéville" (a Do 17P was shot down there, please see Plane 4). It is possible that the information about the crash of Plane 1 and Plane 4 are inverted.
B) The surfcity.kund.dalnet.se website is listing the crash site as “Saucy-Le-Haut”, when the crashplace.de website is listing it as “Sancy-Le-Haut”.
C) The names of the two other KIA airmen are still unknown, but they are more likely buried near Winter in Niderbronn-Les-Bains. The problem is that Winter is said to have been KIA in Hagéville (see Plane 4).
D) The wreckage of a Do 17 with the partial identification code ??+4? (“4” in dark – black ? – with a yellow or white line around it) is shown in the french newsreel “Journal de guerre N°9 / November 24 1939” and it can be from this Do 17 or from 4) Plane.

Sources :
http://www.volksbund.de
http://www.crashplace.de
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/commonwealth_scoular.htm
http://www.ecpad.fr/journal-de-guerre-9-semaine-du-24-novembre-1939
Batailles aériennes N°3

*********************************************

Plane 2 : He 111H-1
Unit : Stab/KG53
Werk Nummer : 5262
Identification code : ???
Crew 1 : Oberleutnant Friedrich-Wilhelm Franke, POW (parachuted)
Crew 2 : ??? Ernst Domanski, WIA/POW (parachuted)
Crew 3 : Unteroffizier Alfred Borrmann, KIA [buried in Boulay-Moselle then moved to Niederbronn-Les-Bains, Block 33 Reihe 11 Grab 369]
Crew 4 : Unteroffizier Max Wagner, KIA [buried Boulay-Moselle then moved to Niederbronn-Les-Bains, Block 33 Reihe 11 Grab 368]

Date : November 23, 1939 (12 AM)
Crash site : Macker / Boulay-Moselle / Varize

Pictures I have : two

Shoot down by :
Flying Officer Newell “Fanny” Norton from 73 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Sergeant Cyril Norman Stanley “???” Campbell from 73 Squadron (Hurricane I)

Notas :
A) The exact location of the crash is between the Boulay-Moselle > Varize road and the Boulay-Moselle > Halling-Lès-Boulay, near Macker. The field location is called “Börnchen”.
B) Various similar articles about the crash were published in french newspapers, amongst them “Ouest-Éclair” (various editions) issue of December 14, 1939 and “Paris Soir” issue of December 13, 1939.
C) A postcard (one of the two known pictures) was also published, and as in the french newspapers, it gave the air victory to french pilots !
D) Strangely the two He 111 shot down on November 23 crashed near Macker and… Königsmacker and were shot down by the same pilot ! Many errors between the two shot downs are due to these coincidences.
E) The picture on page 4 of “Historica N°25” is showing the He 111 of… Königsmacker (with the info of the He 111 shoot down in Macker).
F) It is confirmed by two witnesses that two Hurricanes were chasing the He 111, so Campbell and Norton shot down together the same He 111.
G) The two KIA crew members are buried in two adjacent graves in Niederbronn-Les-Bains.

Sources :
http://www.volksbund.de
http://www.ci-as.eu/albert-schweitzer/presentation/cimetiere-militaire/cimetiere.html
http://www.cieldegloire.com/002_raf_orton_n.php
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=244414;article=7467
Batailles aériennes N°3
Historica N°25
Boulay-Moselle by Paul Bajetti & friends
Personal story of Robert Soulat

*********************************************


3) Plane : Do 17P
Unit : 3.(F)/122
Werk Nummer : 30321
Identification code : F6+HL
Crew 1 : Oberfeldwebel Baptist Schlapp, WIA/POW
Crew 2 : Unterofficier Helmut-Heinz Gründling, WIA/POW
Crew 3 : Unteroffizier Alfred Molek, WIA/POW

Date : November 23, 1939 (10 AM)
Crash site : La Besace / Raucourt-Et-Flaba

Picture I have : one

Shoot down by :
Flying Officer Edward James “Cobber” Kain from 73 Squadron (Hurricane I)

Notas :
A) The Do 17P was able to make a safe landing, and the crew had the time to destroy the plane with incendiary grenades and then surrended to… a passing-by peasant with his fork !
Location is called “Le Fond De Bériotte”.
B) The french newsreel “Journal de guerre N°9 / November 24 1939” is showing a long report filmed in location, with the presence of Kain, the peasant, and two of the german crew members !
C) The luftwaffedata.co.uk website do not list this aircraft shoot down.
D) The crash site is listed as “Conflans” on the cieldegloire.com website, and the aircraft from 3.(F)/22.

Sources :
http://www.volksbund.de
http://www.crashplace.de
http://www.ecpad.fr/journal-de-guerre-9-semaine-du-24-novembre-1939
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/index.php?t-11080.html
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=26637
http://www.cieldegloire.com/002_kain_e_j.php
http://www.luftwaffedata.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Aufkl._Gr._122_Nov_1939
Batailles aériennes N°3
Historica N°25

*********************************************

Plane 4 : Do 17P
Unit : 3.(F)/22
Werk Nummer : ???
Identification code : ???
Crew 1 : Feldwebel Franz Hallauer, KIA [Reillon]
Crew 2 : Feldwebel Siegfried Dressler, KIA [Reillon]
Crew 3 : Gefreiter Wolfgang Schüz, KIA [Reillon]

Date : November 23, 1939 (2 PM)
Crash site : Haumont-Les-Lachaussée / Hagéville

Picture I have : ???

Shoot down by :
Flying Officer Mark Henry “Hilly” Brown from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Squadron Leader Patrick John Handy “Bull” Halahan from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)

Notas :
A) The first two crewmen are listed as dead in “Sancy-Le-Haut”, which is the location of Plane 1. The last crewman is listed as dead in Longwy. It is possible that the informations about the crash of Plane 1 and Plane 4 are inverted.
B) On the french newpaper “Le Figaro” of November 25, Hagéville is written “Angeville”.
C) The luftwaffedata.co.uk is listing erroneously one of their missing planes as being shot down in Haumont-Les-Lachaussée.
D) The wreckage of a Do 17 with the partial identification code ??+4? (“4” in dark – black ? – with a yellow or white line around it) is shown in the french newsreel “Journal de guerre N°9 / November 24 1939” and it can be from this Do 17 or from Plane 1.

Sources :
http://www.volksbund.de
http://www.tourisme-meurtheetmoselle.fr/fr/fugue,art-et-patrimoine/cimetiere-franco-allemand-de-reillon,742000345
http://www.luftwaffedata.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Aufkl._Gr._122_Nov_1939
http://www.forums.luftwaffedata.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=575&view=previous
http://www.cieldegloire.com/sq_raf_001.php
http://www.acesofww2.com/Canada/aces/brown/#.Uk8w_K9OKUk
http://www.ecpad.fr/journal-de-guerre-9-semaine-du-24-novembre-1939
Batailles aériennes N°3

*********************************************

Plane 5 : He 111H-2
Unit : 2.(F)/122
Werk Nummer : ???
Identification code : F6+FK
Crew 1 : Leutnant R. Aeckerle, KIA [grave location unknown]
Crew 2 : Unteroffizier A. Gumpp, KIA [grave location unknown]
Crew 3 : Unteroffizier T. Blattmann, KIA [grave location unknown]
Crew 4 : Obergefreiter A. Schidlitzki, KIA [grave location unknown]

Date : November 23, 1939 (before 12 AM)
Crash site : Königsmacker

Picture I have : one

Shoot down by :
Flying Officer Newell “Fanny” Norton from 73 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Flying Lieutenant George Hugo “Formby” Plinston from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Sergeant Arthur Victor “Taffy” Clowes from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Sergent Paul Audrain from GC II/5 (Curtiss H-75A)
Adjudant Paul De Montgolfier from GC II/5 (Curtiss H-75A)
Sergent André Bouhy from GC II/5 (Curtiss H-75A)

Notas :
A) Aeckerle is the only one listed (as MIA in Poland ?) on volksbund.de.
B) See Plane 2 for the various errors made between the two He 111 shot down on November 23. For example on the cieldegloire.com the He 111 is listed as being the one from Boulay. On the “Batailles aériennes N°3” the two He 111 are lislabelled. The picture on “Historica N°25” is the He 111 from Königsmacker, but is presented as the one from Boulay.
C) One of the french fighter damaged by mistake the Hurricane of Clowes who was able to land safely.

Sources :
http://www.luftwaffedata.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Aufkl._Gr._122_Nov_1939
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=26637
http://www.cieldegloire.com/002_raf_orton_n.php
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=244414;article=7467
http://www.cieldegloire.com/sq_raf_001.php
http://www.cieldegloire.com/gc_2_05.php
Batailles aériennes N°3
Historica N°25

*********************************************

Plane 6 : Do 17P
Unit : 4.(F)/122
Werk Nummer : ???
Identification code : F6+HM
Crew 1 : Unteroffizier Klaus Ehlers, KIA after he parachuted [grave location unknown]
Crew 2 : Unteroffizier Alfred Röder, WIA/POW (parachuted)
Crew 3 : Unteroffizier Arno Frankenberger, POW

Date : November 23, 1939 (10.30 AM)
Crash site : Vienne-La-Ville / Moiremont

Picture I have : ???

Shoot down by :
Flying Officer John Ignatius “Killy” Kilmartin from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Sergeant Francis Joseph “???” Soper from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Flying Officer Cyril Dampier “Pussy” Palmer from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)

Notas :
A) Two members of the crew parachuted, but Ehlers didn’t survive. Frankenberger was able to shot down (!) Palmer then landed the burning Do 17. Frankenberger went back to his unit after the fall of France.
B) The return fire from the Do 17 which was behind the Hurricane of Palmer was well recorded as it was decided after flying tests that back armour will be provided to all the English fighters (german fighters already had such protection).

Sources :
http://www.luftwaffedata.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Aufkl._Gr._122_Nov_1939
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=26637
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/index.php?t-11080.html
http://www.cieldegloire.com/sq_raf_001.php
http://en.ww2awards.com/person/41709
http://books.google.fr/books?id=Ks_dyu0wjqQC&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=Flying+O fficer+Cyril+Palmer&source=bl&ots=qABTt5nt5-&sig=ttNF0BMFyPehW8PynvL0dWvU1lY&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=9z5 PUoa3BOKH0AXRuYCoDw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Fl ying%20Officer%20Cyril%20Palmer&f=false
Batailles aériennes N°3

*********************************************

Plane 7 : Do 17P
Unit : 5.(F)/122
Werk Nummer : ???
Identification code : F6+HM
Crew 1 : Lieutnant K. Behnke, POW
Crew 2 : Unteroffizier H. Schrutek, POW
Crew 3 : Unteroffizier A. Hermann, POW

Date : November 23, 1939 (3.20 PM)
Crash site : Bras-Sur-Meuse

Picture I have : one

Shoot down by :
Sergent Chef Pierre Le Gloan from GC II/6 (Morane Saulnier 406)
Sous-Lieutenant Robert Martin from GC II/6 (Morane Saulnier 406)

Sources :
http://www.cieldegloire.com/gc_3_06.php
http://www.cieldegloire.com/004_le_gloan_p.php
http://www.bibert.fr/Joseph_Bibert_fichiers/Historique%20GC%203_6.htm
http://www.bibert.fr/Joseph_Bibert_fichiers/Pierre%20LE%20GLOAN.htm
http://www.luftwaffedata.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Aufkl._Gr._122_Nov_1939
Batailles aériennes N°3
Les ailes françaises 1939-1945 N°2

*********************************************

Plane 8 : Do 17P
Unit : 1.(F)/123
Werk Nummer : ???
Identification code : ??+4?
Crew 1 : ???, escaped to Switzerland, liberated in June 1940
Crew 2 : ???, escaped to Switzerland, liberated in June 1940
Crew 3 : ???, escaped to Switzerland, liberated in June 1940

Date : November 23, 1939 (???)
Crash site : Côtebrune / Bouclans

Picture I have : two

Shoot down by :
Lieutenant Maurice Bissoudre from GC II/3 (Morane Saulnier 406)

Notas :
A) The crew is listed as “dead” on initial allied reports.
B) The crash location is maybe shown on the french newsreel “Journal de guerre N°9 / November 24 1939”. The crash location is listed on “Le Figaro” newspaper of November 25 as “Courtebrune” with a picture of the wreckage.
C) Another picture of the wreckage is showing the partial identification code ??+4? (with “4” in yellow or white).

Sources :
http://www.ecpad.fr/journal-de-guerre-9-semaine-du-24-novembre-1939
http://www.bibert.fr/Joseph_Bibert_fichiers/Victoires_fichiers/Biard(low).htm
http://www.cieldegloire.com/gc_2_03.php
http://www.histavia21.net/HISTAV2/DOUBCRASHS.htm
http://bibert.fr/Joseph_Bibert_fichiers/1939_11_25%20Figaro.pdf
http://www.crashplace.de
Batailles aériennes N°3
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  #2  
Old 7th October 2013, 04:52
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: [Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !)

Hello,

In the Eagles Over Europe (EoE) Luft Loss DB for 23.11.39, there were many losses and damages to German a/c on that date. I haven't had the time to check through your sources and match these to these, but the ones that came down in France or Belgium are listed below:

"23 November 1939:

Stabsstaffel KG2 Dornier Do17Z-2. Attacked by Curtiss H-75s over Fléville during photo-reconnaissance mission and badly damaged by Capt J-M. Accart of GC I/5. Then engaged south of Jarny by F/Lt J. E. Scoular and Sgt J. Winn of No.73 Sqdn and pursued north to crash and burn out on the railway line between Audun-le-Roman and Trieux, at Sancy-le-Haut 1.10 p.m. Also attacked by Sergeant C. N. S. Campbell. (Beo) Oberlt Alfred Winter and crew all believed killed. Aircraft 100% write-off. (Photos)

Stab KG53 Heinkel He111H-2 (5262). Shot down by F/O N. Orton of No.73 Sqdn during reconnaissance sortie and crashed and exploded at Verize, south of Boulay-Moselle. (Beo) Oberlt Friedrich-Wilhelm Franke and (Ff) Oberfw Ernst Domanski captured wounded. (Bf) Uffz Alfred Boormann and (Bm) Uffz Max Wagner killed. Aircraft 100% write-off.

3.(F)/22 Dornier Do17P-1 (3521). Shot down by S/L P. J. H. Halahan and F/O M. H. Brown of No.1 Sqdn during reconnaissance sortie between Verdun and Metz; crashed and burned out near Haumont-lès-Lachaussée 2.00 p.m. (Ff) Fw Franz Hallauer, (Beo) Fw Siegfried Dressler, and (Bf) Gefr Wolfgang Schulz all killed. Aircraft 4N+HL 100% write-off.

3.(F)/121 Heinkel He111H-2. Badly damaged in attack by Sgt R. Delarue of GC III/7 during factory test flight over the frontier. Chase abandoned over Belgium but finally crashed at Dielkirchen, south of Bad Kreuznach, 9.45 a.m. FF Oberfw Helmuth Gräber, BF Gefr Armin May, BM Oberprüfer Otto Schulz, and Fähnrich Johannes Schulz all killed. (None found in VDK) Aircraft 100% write-off.

2.(F)/122 Heinkel He111H-2. Attacked near Saarbrücken by Hurricanes of No.1 Squadron (F/Lt G. H. F. Plinston and Sgt A. V. Clowes), together with Curtiss H-75s of GC II/5 (Adjt P. de Montgolfier, Adjt Audrain, and Sgt A. Bouhy). Crashed at Koenigsmacker, north-east of Thionville, 12.00 p.m. Lt Robert Aeckerle, Uffz Anton Gumpp, Uffz Theodor Blattmann, and Obergefr Alfred Schidlitzki killed. Aircraft F6+FK a write-off.

3.(F)/122 Dornier Do17P-1. Shot down by F/O E.J. Kain of No.73 Squadron during photo-reconnaissance mission over Reims. Crash-landed ripping off starboard engine at ‘Le Fond de Bériotte’, La Besace, near Raucourt-et-Flaba 10.15 a.m. BO Oberfw Baptist Schlapp, FF Uffz Helmut-Heinz Gründling, and BF Uffz Alfred Molek all captured wounded, admitted to hospital in Le Chesne. Aircraft fired by crew 100% write-off. (Photos)

4.(F)/122 Dornier Do17P-1. Both engines crippled in attacks by F/O C.D. Palmer of No.1 Squadron over Ecury-sur-Coole during photo-reconnaissance to Cambrai and belly-landed at Moiremont, north of Ste-Menehould 10.45 a.m. Also attacked by F/O J.I. Kilmartin and Sgt F.J. Soper. BO Uffz Klaus Ehlers baled out over Mairy-sur-Marne but fell dead, BF Uffz Alfred Röder also baled out and captured wounded in left leg - admitted to hospital in Châlons, FF Uffz Arno Frankenberger captured unhurt. Aircraft F6+FM 100% write-off. (Photos).

5.(F)/122 Dornier Do17P-1. Shot down by S/Lt R. Martin and Adjt Le Gloan of GC III/6 during reconnaissance of airfields between Avesnes and Mont Cornet and crashed at Bras-sur-Meuse, north of Verdun. (Beo) Lt Kurt Behnke, (Ff) Uffz Hans Schrutek, and (Bf) Uffz Arthur Herrmann believed baled out and captured unhurt. Aircraft 100% write-off.

1.(F)/123 Dornier Do17P-1. Shot down by Lt Bissoudre and Sgt Tourné of GC II/3 over Saône, east of Besançon, and belly-landed at Côtebrune, east of Bouclans 9.45 a.m. (Ff) Fw Leo Knoch, (Beo) Uffz Hans Pötzinger, and (Bf) Uffz Friedrich Böhle evaded capture and crossed the Swiss border between La Chaux-de-Fonds and les Brenets three days later and interned. Aircraft 100% write-off.
This crew was repatriated to Germany at Stetten-Lörrach on June 28."

I have photos matched to at least three of these, and possibly a fourth. I'm hoping to find photos for all of these cashes and force-landings. Perhaps we can cooperate.

Regards.

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator






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  #3  
Old 7th October 2013, 20:42
Bertrand H Bertrand H is offline
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Re: [Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !)

Hi,


There are also photos of a Dornier 17 page 37 and 120 of "Battle of France" Then and Now.

It is "your" plane 3, shot down by “Cobber” Kain at Raucourt-et-Flaba.

Bertrand
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  #4  
Old 8th October 2013, 02:44
DIscotraxxx DIscotraxxx is offline
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Re: [Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !)

Hi,

many thanks Larry and Bertrand for your help and the additional infos.
Larry your PM box seemed to be full, if you can send me a PM or give me an email so i can contact you ?

@ Larry : some comments about your infos !

Plane 1 : Do 17Z-2

> thanks for confirming the exact type of Do 17.
> you are right, the first name of Capitaine Accart is Jean-Marie.
http://aerostories.free.fr/pil_cha_fr/accart/page2.html
> i also saw that Seageant Campbell also attacked the airplane, but i don't remember the exact source.

NOTA : we still have a massive problem with the fact that Winter is listed as being KIA in... Hagéville. And Scoular who visited the crash site also said he visited it in Hagéville...
And Plane 4, crashed in Hagéville, has two of his KIA members said to be from... Sancy !

Plane 2 : He 111H-2

> some sources say that the aircraft is a H-1. What is the difference between the two types (H-1 and H-2) ?
> thanks for confirming the rank of Domanski !
> i have the exact location, and i can send you a map and pictures i have of this crash (i was too lazy to upload all the pictures).

NOTAS : in my opinion Franke and Domanski were the only remaining alive members when they parachuted. At least one of the two KIA members had more than 70 (!) impacts/wounds in his body.
Two british airplanes were chasing the He 111 (confirmed by TWO witnesses), and Sergeant Campbell got an air victory against an He 111. In my opinion Campbell and Orton were chasing together the He 111 until he crashed.

Plane 3 : Do 17P-1

> i can provide you movie, pictures and postcards of that crash.

Plane 4 : Do 17P-1

> thanks for the infos about the Werk nummer and the identification code.

Plane 5 : He 111H-2

> Orton is listed as having an air victory on this one, and it is listed that 6 pilots took part in the shoot down.

Plane 6 : Do 17P-1

> thanks to confirm that it was attacked over the Ecury-sur-Coole airfield ! This plane may have been listed twice on the allied military report published in “Le Figaro” of November 25, 1939 (one plane shoot down over Ecury-Sur-Coole, one plane shoot down over Vienne-La-Ville).
> i'm interested by your picture !

Plane 7 : Do 17P-1

> i made an error, the unit was GC III/6. But Le Gloan was Sergent Chef, and not adjudant.
> thanks for confirming the first names of the aircrew members !

Plane 8 : Do 17P-1

> Sergent Tourné was only the wingman of Bissoudre, he didn't took part in the air combat (and didn't had any air victory).

See You

Vince
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  #5  
Old 8th October 2013, 16:10
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: [Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !)

Vince,

I"ve emailed you my personal email address. Please contact me directly.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator
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  #6  
Old 9th October 2013, 16:30
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: [Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !)

Vince and Larry,

May I ask you if you do have pictures of this particular machine or of ARNO FRANKENBERGER, which you could share. I am interested in that particular case.

4.(F)/122 Dornier Do17P-1. Both engines crippled in attacks by F/O C.D. Palmer of No.1 Squadron over Ecury-sur-Coole during photo-reconnaissance to Cambrai and belly-landed at Moiremont, north of Ste-Menehould 10.45 a.m. Also attacked by F/O J.I. Kilmartin and Sgt F.J. Soper. BO Uffz Klaus Ehlers baled out over Mairy-sur-Marne but fell dead, BF Uffz Alfred Röder also baled out and captured wounded in left leg - admitted to hospital in Châlons, FF Uffz Arno Frankenberger captured unhurt. Aircraft F6+FM 100% write-off. (Photos).

Thank you
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Old 9th October 2013, 20:23
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: [Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !)

Adriano, the Paul Richey book 'Fighter Pilot' has an account of the shooting down of Frankenberger and the latest edition has a photo of him. I have sent you an E-mail with the details,

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Brian Bines
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Old 10th October 2013, 00:53
DIscotraxxx DIscotraxxx is offline
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Re: [Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !)

Hi,

i don't have picture of the Frankenberger crash yet.
But many local newspapers are yet to be investigated...

I'm looking for "Le Figaro" November 25, 1939 issue for example, or the "Le Journal" November 24, 1939 issue (both are filmed in the french newsreel).

I will probably upload all the pictures i have on the board, i'm waiting some war postcards with Plane 2 and Plane 3.

See You

Vince
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  #9  
Old 10th October 2013, 20:49
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Dan Gilberti Dan Gilberti is offline
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Re: [Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !)

Hi some pics about the Do 17 from côtebrune
Bsrg, Dan
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Cot1.JPG (113.6 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg Cot2.JPG (92.5 KB, 57 views)
File Type: jpg Cot3.JPG (79.7 KB, 48 views)
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Old 10th October 2013, 21:54
DIscotraxxx DIscotraxxx is offline
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Re: [Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !)

Hi,

amazing pictures, many thanks Dan !

The picture 2 is the one published in "Le Figaro", November 25, 1939 issue (in better quality of course).

See You

Vince
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