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  #51  
Old 15th October 2018, 22:13
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

the other day a fellow mentioned there is a photo of Dahl's Fw190A-8 celebrating his 100th kill. Is that true ?

Michael

Last edited by knusel; 15th October 2018 at 22:43.
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  #52  
Old 16th October 2018, 01:04
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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Strange case of Walter Dahl

Hi Michael

I have never seen or read anything about a photograph of Major Walther Dahl celebrating his 100th victory; however, there is a photograph of his Fw 190 A-8 "Blue 13" (W.Nr. 170 994) of the Geschwaderstab of JG 300 bedecked with a wreath celebrating his 75th victory. Perhaps that it the one you have in mind? This photograph appears on page 285 of Focke Wulf Jagdflugzeug by Rodeike.

Horrido!

Leo
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  #53  
Old 16th October 2018, 10:42
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Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

And that's including his unconfirmed victories according to Johannes' file. Photos of it can also be found in Jean-Yves Lorant JG 300 book.
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  #54  
Old 16th October 2018, 21:49
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Good evening Gentlemen,

I found several photos of the 75th kill celebrations in Ralf Schumann's book.

The fellow I mentioned told me there is an Fw 190A-8 photo on the occasion of Dahl's 100th kill but he admitted it might not be his but a plane chosen for the show.

Can you tell me the number of his claims on 10Apr and 11Apr 1945 ?

Cheers,

Michael
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  #55  
Old 18th October 2018, 12:12
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Hi Michael

Yes, another senior moment, seems that Dahl would be tied with Egon Mayer with twenty-seven "Viermots", though Mayer was with JG2 not all pilots with this Geschwader overclaimed, and I think that Mayer is okay(a project for claims/loses experts). Just who in reality did actually shoot down the most heavies is hard to say, but Werner Schroer was a honest guy with twenty-three.


Kind Regards


Johannes
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  #56  
Old 18th October 2018, 13:04
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Hi Michael

Yes, another senior moment, seems that Dahl would be tied with Egon Mayer with twenty-seven "Viermots", though Mayer was with JG2 not all pilots with this Geschwader overclaimed, and I think that Mayer is okay(a project for claims/loses experts). Just who in reality did actually shoot down the most heavies is hard to say, but Werner Schroer was a honest guy with twenty-three.


Kind Regards


Johannes
Disagree with you on Schroer. Quite a few overclaims in his tally
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  #57  
Old 18th October 2018, 14:54
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Hector View Post
Disagree with you on Schroer. Quite a few overclaims in his tally
Nick

What Johannes means with an "honest guy" is that he cannot see any pattern of trying to falsify his claims.
There is a lot overclaiming by the "honest guys" as well, on ALL sides.

Many years ago, I listened to a TV interview with Schroer and he came out as very, very honest in my mind.

Cheers
Stig
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  #58  
Old 18th October 2018, 21:03
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Hi Michael
Yes, another senior moment, seems that Dahl would be tied with Egon Mayer with twenty-seven "Viermots", though Mayer was with JG2 not all pilots with this Geschwader overclaimed, and I think that Mayer is okay(a project for claims/loses experts). Just who in reality did actually shoot down the most heavies is hard to say, but Werner Schroer was a honest guy with twenty-three.
Kind Regards
Johannes
Good evening Johannes,

have you noticed that this website
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/mayer.html
indicates only 26 Viermot kills for Mayer ?
The kill that is different from your book is #84 (5Nov43).

Have a nice Thursday,

Michael
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  #59  
Old 19th October 2018, 12:31
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik View Post
Nick

What Johannes means with an "honest guy" is that he cannot see any pattern of trying to falsify his claims.
There is a lot overclaiming by the "honest guys" as well, on ALL sides.

Many years ago, I listened to a TV interview with Schroer and he came out as very, very honest in my mind.

Cheers
Stig
Stig,
I know perfectly well what Johannes means. I acknowledge the outstanding work that he has done checking the German victory claims microfilms and acknowledge the very good work that his aces biographies represents.

However, on the basis of evidence, I am inclined to disagree with him on Schroer being an overly-honest pilot, particularly when it comes to claims against Viermots:


4.11.42/121
B-24 Liberator
Between Sollum and Benghazi
Halverson detachment? Overclaiming? Can't find an attibutable loss

5.5.43/1500
B-24D Liberator
NW of Marettimo
Overclaiming, no losses this date


9.5.43/1310
B-24 Liberator
1km E of Capo Gallo
Appears to be overclaiming, several were damaged this date but on a later raid

OR, IF A MISIDENTIFICATION/MISATTRIBUTION OR OTHER ERROR:

B-17F 42-5147 “Old Ironsides” damaged by fighter and collided with 41-24415 (both of 414th BS, 97th BG. Both crews all safe except one man baled out MIA). One other attributed to flak with crew all KIA, one forcelanded after Flak hit and 21 others lesser damage attributed to Flak


11.5.43/1214
B-17 Flying Fortress
25km S of Marsala @ 3000m
Overclaiming, no losses this date

18.5.43/1345
B-17 Flying Fortress
50km NW of Trapani @ 4500m
Overclaiming, no losses

21.5.43/1121
B-17 Flying Fortress
35km S of Marsala @ 7000m
Overclaiming, no losses

25.5.43/1117
B-17F Flying Fortress
40km NW of Marettimo @ 2200m
Losses attributed to fighters include B-17F-25-BO 41-24576 of 341st BS, 97th BG, 1/Lt. William Albright and 7 others safe, 1 WIA and 1 MIA. 49th BS, 2nd BG had 42-29638 damaged and forcelanded at Bizerta. 2/Lt. William J Valentine and six safe, three WIA. Possibly to fighters: B-17F-30-DL 42-3174 "Thunderbird" of 416th BS, 99th BG, Capt. Robert E L Goad and crew all KIA
347th BS had 42-29489 "Persuader" and 42-29490 "Axis Ass Ache" both damaged, crews safe

31.5.43/1444
B-17F-25-VE Flying Fortress
WNW (300 deg) of Trapani @ 100m
(Kampe, Kapp and Buschek also claimed)
Only loss was 42-5831 "The Virgin" of 32nd BS, 97th BG. 1/Lt. Victor J Lewin and six others safe, two or three (sources vary) KIA

15.6.43/0823
B-17F Flying Fortress
2km W Favignana @ 3600m
No mention of any B-17 losses. Overclaiming

11.7.43/1320
B-24 Liberator
into the sea 25km S of Crotone @ 5500m
Overclaiming, no losses to fighters (only loss was due to an accident)

16.7.43/1300 and 1315
2 x B-24D Liberators
SW of Santeramo in Colle/WSW of Bari
11 claims for just three losses in total:
42-40649/73 of 514th BS, 376th BG. 1/Lt. Samuel D Rose and eight others baled out POW, one man KIA
42-40236 "Fyrtle Myrtle" of 513th BS, 376th BG. 1/Lt. Charlie G Hinson and six others KIA, 3 POW
42-40110/53 "Pink Lady" of 513th BS, 376th BG. 1/Lt. Roger Smith Jr and four others POW, 1 returned and 3 POW

23.7.43/1410
B-17 Flying Fortress
20km N of Stromboli
Overclaiming, no losses

6.9.43/1108
B-17F-35-VE Flying Fortress HSS
S of Echterdingen/E of Geislingen (N of Neu Ulm) @ 6000m
Attributed by some sources as 42-5942 "Sky Shy/Wenatchee Special" of 563rd BS, 388th BG. Pilot named M Bowen. 1 KIA, 1 DOW and 8 POW. Legitimate victory



24.5.44/1140 and 1145
B-17G-20-BO Flying Fortress
near Wittstock
Likely claimed against 42-31534/LN-N "Shilaylee" of 350th BS, 100th BG. 1/Lt. Francis J Malooly and crew all POW (came down at Goericke, 19 miles SW of Wittstock)

Some of the absent claims I have yet to attribute to losses or determine as overclaims

But in any case, I hope I have presented acceptable evidence as to why I disagree with Johannes' belief that Schroer might be a contender for the top destroyer of real Viermots, and why I disagree that he was an overly honest claimer as some of his non-Viermot claims are equally questionable

...and I really don't think it matters how honest he happened to look in television interviews. It's evidence that decides. On the basis of evidence, I don't think he was overly honest.

Nick
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  #60  
Old 19th October 2018, 13:42
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Nick

Judging honesty in a man without ever meeting him in person is difficult. From your answer I can only suppose you never did (neither did I).

All fighter pilots in the Med area overclaimed tremendously when the Fortresses and Liberators appeared, meaning that everybody was dishonest if your method is to be used. There was a whole lot of wishful thinking involved in these claims, no doubt about it!
Taking on a pack of four-engined bombers took a lot of courage and the number of claims can equally be interpreted as how many combats he was involved in.

I don't intend to bicker with you about Schroer's honesty or not. I am satisfied that Johannes finds him by his measument to have been just that. My answer to you was simply because I did not know if you knew Johannes way of thinking or not. I suggest we leave it at that.

Cheers
Stig
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