Battle for Kiev 1941: VVS order of battle

[yogybär]

Similar job for the 1941-battle around the ukrainian capital as we made it so well for the 1943-story... but this time it is much more difficult as there are no such clear documents available - at leat not to me.

Who can help? Maybe in BC/RS1, there is something? Sadly, I don't own it .

[yogybär]

I found out that the involved RedArmies Group was the "Bryansk Front" with its connected air units... but which air units are these & which types they used still is unclear.

Does anyone have informations here?

[Michal]

Hi,

believe, you know bit russian. See attachment, there is OOB of Bryansk Front for September 15 1941.

[Michal]

You mistook me. Defence of Kiev made Aviation of Jugozapadnyi Front. See in attachment OOB for July 11 and 17 1941.

[yogybär]

I personally still believe that it was the Bryansk Front which flew in Defense of Kiev. Why do you disagree?

Starting from your OOB-doc of Bryansk-Front, it was widely inferior to the german II&V Fliegerkorps which supported the Heer.

Here are the soviet numbers, already simplified for the game PF:
10 I-153
13 I-16
44 MiG-3
25 Yak-1
26 Il-2
40 DB-3 (added them as support from AAD-forerunner)
24 Pe-2
18 Sb
25 Su-2
33 U-2 (incl. others like R-5)
SUM ca. 260

versus ca. 500 Luftwaffe combat AC (Bf109F, Ju88, Ju87, He111 + Recce).

Any more input?

[Jens]

IMHO Michal is right, Southwestfront (Jugosapadnje front) and airplanes of it defended Kiev, since Bryansk is more in the north of it.

[Christer Bergström]

It was VVS KOVO/Southwestern Front. Initially, the DBA’s 2 BAK and 4 BAK also supported the operations in this area. Including 14 TBAP with TB-3s. Add the PVO’s 36 IAD, which joined the battle in the skies immediately above Kiev.

Indeed the Germans enjoyed a considerable numerical superiority at one stage, however, with the bulk of the aircraft in the Southwestern Direction concentrated to VVS Southwestern Front in late August 1941, the latter could muster 493 bombers, 473 fighters, and 20 reconnaissance aircraft on 30 August 1941. By the same time, Luftflotte 4 was down at a strength of 320 bombers, around 100 serviceable fighters, and 35 reconnaissance aircraft.

The Bryansk Front, which was formed only in August 1941, operated to the north of the Southwestern Front, and thus to the north and northeast of Kiev.

[Michal]

Yogy,

when you studying these OOBs, you just locate A/Fs and you will know which Air Units fought where.

Michal

[yogybär]

OK, OK. I'll check the AF's when I find time, sure this is the best way to persuade myself

Also I shall read more carefully what I have here in BC/RS next time.

Thanks to all for your input !

I'll rework and come back with a new proposal.

[yogybär]

If I try to extrude from BC/RS part I what VVS parts were involved, I get confused:

- Bryansk front (460A/C) fought in the same area as Lw's FK.II
- Southern&Southwestern Front fought agaionst Lw's LF 4 in general, so not only on the southern half of the Kiev area.

If this is correct Would, one could say for Kiev area:
- Lw = FK.II+FK.V
- VVS = Bryansk Front + part of Southwest Front + Southern Front?