Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

[Iain Torrance]

Peter

No problem, this topic was actually discussed back in 2009 in this Forum on the thread Fairey Battle P21.., 103 Squadron RAF.My comments below.

(Incidentally from memory I think Chorley has the plane IDs and pilots below interchangable. Presumably only the loss date is on the plane records. )

Kind regards

Iain

K9374 is PM-J the Sgt Perry a/c crash landed near Machault very near Betheniville. There are a lot of photos of this plane including Gillet’s Betheniville book. Have also seen photos with attribution bei Machault (zwischen Sedan und Reims)


Perry DFM rec:
PERRY, Charles David (561615) Sergeant (Pilot)
D.F.M. (immediate) London Gazette 14 June 1940
Recommended 18 May 1940

This N.C.O. was seriously wounded by two bullets in the thigh and stomach during a low flying attack against the enemy on 14.5.40. Sgt Perry piloted his aircraft to the vicinity of his base until finding himself fainting he force landed.The action of this N.C.O.showed great courage and stamina.
Sadly he died in England a month later of bullet wounds to the stomach.

P2191 is PM-K the Fitzgerald crash landing. Location is not known to me only that it was in a forward area, possibly in a French Sector.
I have copy of his logbook which confirms P2191, the crash date. And a phoney war photo which ties P2191 to PM-K and there have been recent photos of the crashed PM-K showing the Srl No P2191.

FITZGERALD, Thomas Bernard (40783) Flying Officer (Pilot)
D.F.C. (immediate) London Gazette 14 June1940
Recommendation:

In May, 1940, Flying Officer Fitzgerald carried out a successful and daring low flying attack against the enemy at Sedan. During a second raid a few days later, he was wounded but succeeded in effecting a forced landing and saving the lives of his crew

Fitzgerald was wounded in the arm and evacuated to England. The DFC rec is wrong in refering to lives of his crew - he was flying with only one crew.
.

[Peter Cornwell]

Iain,

Many thanks. Having reviewed previous posts on the topic I'm grateful for your patience in making this point for the second or third time of asking! Clearly, the FITZGERALD Log Book is the crucial evidence here and I have amended my records accordingly. A location for his landing would be most useful but that detail seems to elude us at present. Thanks again.

[paulmcmillan]

Some 103 Sqn NCO and Airmen full names and serial numbers

Sergeant William Ralph Critch #564578 (not W E Critch) as sometimes quoted
Sergeant John Ernest Summers #534586
Sergeant Joseph Anthony McCudden #560344
Sergeant Lennart Fredrick Waern #580470
Sergeant Derrick Norrington #580441 Later Missing in Action
Leading Aircraftsman George Frederick Lewis #53336o

[Larry Hickey]

Iain and Paul,

Thanks for your added inputs to this complicated problem. Peter C. has now revised his entries, as noted above. We really do need a crash-landing location for Battle P2191, PM-K (Fitzgerald). For the present, we've changed this to "unknown France" in our DB, so if anyone has any insight into this, your comments/info would be greatly appreciated.

We have decided to go forward with full names and crew positions for the British loss/damages/casualties DB, thanks for an offer from Martin Gleeson to take that ask on for the EOE Working Group. Thanks Martin! He will be using this board for questions and problems relating to that subject for the EOE Project, leaving Peter Cornwell to focus on getting the most accurate overall loss entries as possible.

Regards,

[Iain Torrance]

On the broader subject of Battle identification would be grateful if anybody can help with a few IDs:

QT*L and QT*I - many photos seen, but never with visible serial no

QT*H - again many photos of this one, bombed in standing, it is probably L5440 at Berry-au-Bac but not confirmed

GB*O - photographed on train with Hurricane P2676 and battle MQ*V srl
L5461. GB*O believed to start with a 'K' serial no.

thanks

Iain

[Larry Hickey]

Iain,

Have just received the updated DB entires for 142 SQ from Peter Cornwell and ran them all through the photo DB. I note that he does not have SN for QToL or QToH, although he does suggest that the latter was probably written off at Berry-au-Buc, but does not confirm this.

For QToI, he has:

May 19, 1940: Battle K7696. Brought down by ground fire during attack on targets west of Laon and believed belly-landed near Marle (France at) 10.45 a.m. Pilot Officer H. H. Taylor, Sergeant S. Lang, and LAC H. Long all captured. Aircraft QT*I a write-off.

I note that one photo of QToI in the EOE Photo DB had this note in German on the back: "Shot down near Marle 1940.”

I'm going to list our questions concerning 142 SQ photos that we can't identify in a separate posting.

Regarding the photos of GBoO, I apparently have the same photos on the freight car as you do in the DB, but with no SN ID.

So, it appears that, except for QToI, we're on the same page as you are, seeking the same info. Given the good condition of these planes, we'll probably eventually get readable SN on photos for them.

Regards,

[Iain Torrance]

yes agree for QT-I that is the most likely but never got the evidence, any idea what supports that attribution?
for QT-L I have been given crash site of Saint-Loup-Terrier, not got anything else.

thanks

Iain

[Peter Cornwell]

Hello Iain,

I will try to justify the QT*I attribution but admit that it is pure deduction. Among the many photos of QT*I two have emerged with notes on the reverse, one stating 'bei Reims' and another 'Montescourt-Lizerolles-Marle 6.40'. Given what we already know of the various circumstances, locations, and photos we have on their losses in the period, this unattributed No.142 Sqdn loss somewhere around Marle, 30 miles NNE of Reims, strongly suggests it was that flown by the TAYLOR crew on 19 May 1940 during a section attack west of Laon. In short, it comes down to the location from the photo captions plus PoE. Hardly evidential I know but hopefully you follow my reasoning.

[paulmcmillan]

re: For QToI, he has:

May 19, 1940: Battle K7696. Brought down by ground fire during attack on targets west of Laon and believed belly-landed near Marle (France at) 10.45 a.m. Pilot Officer H. H. Taylor, Sergeant S. Lang, and LAC H. Long all captured. Aircraft QT*I a write-off.

I note that one photo of QToI in the EOE Photo DB had this note in German on the back: "Shot down near Marle 1940.”


Just a point......

If you google Battle K7696 in Google Books, it highlights an article in an Old Air Pictorial back in 1997

"Air pictorial: journal of the Air League, Volume 59"

If my memory serves me right.... It had a regular 'problem picture' page.. One issue (page 40) says the following..

Unfortualtely NO picture visible. however the text can be extacted

Which aircraft of No 142 Sqn was allotted the individual letter 'D' is not known . A search of all the Battles extant at this period shows one that could apply. The 'last three' on the photograph could be '696' and apply to K7696. This Battle of No 142 Sqn was engaged with two others in attacking an enemy troop column at Conde-sur-Aisne, just east of Soissons on May 19, and failed to return. The crew, PO HH Taylor, Sgt S Lang and LAC H Long were all later reported as prisoners-of-war. The aircraft in the photograph shows that the crew should have survived the crash and it is obviously in German hands

BTW can't supply full details but crew


P/O Howard Hamilton TAYLOR #36153

Sgt S Lang #561779 MiD Waziristan, North West Frontier of India, 25th November, 1936, to 16th January, 1937

LAC H Long #615961


Now if anyone has a copy of Air Pictorial for 1997 and can dig out the picture??

[Martin Gleeson]

Iain,

I think that GB-O on the train is GB-Q (Q for Queen), based on several E-Bay photos I have seen. Serial on those images is not clear but there is a 'K'. Therefore my money is on K9338, possibly K9188, based on the losses and fates suffered by 105 Sqn. from May 10th - 14th.

Dave (G-ASEA),

I think that 12 Sqn. photo is PH-A also, likewise I have seen an E-Bay photo from the other side. It appears to match L5538 PH-A lost on 19 May 1940, as per 'TBoF,T&N'.

Regards,

Martin.