Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?

[Co de Swart]

Highest BG-losses by the 8th USAAF was on Sep. 27-1944, The Kassel Mission.
445 BG lost 35 out of 39 B24's, most downed in the Eisenach area by Lw Sturmgruppe fighters within 7 minutes.
US researchers just last month finished a 88 min. very impressive TV/Video-documentary (PAL too), presenting rare camerawork, guncamera-shots of both sides, intervieuws with involved pilots of Lw- and USAAF, German civilians, survivers. etc.
Really interested will get a lead to the US, to the producers by sending a mail to mbr. 8th. USAF Hist. Soc. J. de Swart, NL, (himself not profitable)>>
codeswart@wanadoo.nl

[drgondog]

The June 26, 1943 scrap resulted in 56FG losing 5 for 2 destroyed/1 probable.

On November 1943 the 55th Fg lost 6 P-38's for 2 destroyed and 1 probable.

We talked about the 4th (above) but that day was actually a couple of separate engagements and the 4th claimed 5 destroyed for the day's losses of either 7 or 8 in the air (Fraser per above looks like he was not a 'claim by LW around 0620) and the 18th August was 9 lost for 7 destroyed - bad but not terrible considering they were suprised on the deck..

So far the most lopsided seems to be the 20th on February 11, 1944 for 8 P-38's down for 2 destroyed / 1 probable.

I've got to believe some other USAAF fighter group had a worse day than the above but haven't found it yet.

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by drgondog

The June 26, 1943 scrap resulted in 56FG losing 5 for 2 destroyed/1 probable.

On November 1943 the 55th Fg lost 6 P-38's for 2 destroyed and 1 probable.

We talked about the 4th (above) but that day was actually a couple of separate engagements and the 4th claimed 5 destroyed for the day's losses of either 7 or 8 in the air (Fraser per above looks like he was not a 'claim by LW around 0620) and the 18th August was 9 lost for 7 destroyed - bad but not terrible considering they were suprised on the deck..

So far the most lopsided seems to be the 20th on February 11, 1944 for 8 P-38's down for 2 destroyed / 1 probable.

I've got to believe some other USAAF fighter group had a worse day than the above but haven't found it yet.

On 30th August 1943, 44 P-38 Lightnings of the 1st Fighter Group escorted the 319th and 320th Bomb Groups to attack the marshalling yards at Aversa, Italy. All of the B-26 Marauders returned safely, but 13 Lightnings were lost. According to the MACR index, one of the missing P-38 pilots was a member of the 14th Fighter Group.

This battle featured substantial inflated claims of aerial victories, which was typical of both sides at this time. Luftwaffe pilots from JG 53 and JG 77 claimed to have shot down at least 32 Lightnings and two Marauders. I don't know if the Germans suffered any losses in these combats, but the 1st FG claimed eight Bf 109s destroyed.

[RT]

One each i mean 1 for JG77 1 for JG53, 1 pilot was missing

remi

[Gizmo]

On 4th MArch 1943, II./JG 11 bounced a group of P-51s. According USAAF documentation 11 P-51s from 363th FG were lost (but mostly due to weather conditions.)

http://www.heinzknokewebsite.com/My-Site/Victory_22.htm

[shooshoobaby]

Bill - 8th Fighter Command losses
3 - 29 - 44 - 18 Fighters
5- 28 -44 - 12 Fighters
6 - 6 -44 - 28 Fighters
6 - 7 - 44 - 26 Fighters
6- 8 - 44 - 27 Fighters
6 - 10 - 44 - 25 Fighters
6 - 19 - 44 - 16 Fighters
Some examples of " Tough days"
Mike

[kb]

Originally Posted by drgondog

The June 26, 1943 scrap resulted in 56FG losing 5 for 2 destroyed/1 probable.

On November 1943 the 55th Fg lost 6 P-38's for 2 destroyed and 1 probable.

We talked about the 4th (above) but that day was actually a couple of separate engagements and the 4th claimed 5 destroyed for the day's losses of either 7 or 8 in the air (Fraser per above looks like he was not a 'claim by LW around 0620) and the 18th August was 9 lost for 7 destroyed - bad but not terrible considering they were suprised on the deck..

So far the most lopsided seems to be the 20th on February 11, 1944 for 8 P-38's down for 2 destroyed / 1 probable.

I've got to believe some other USAAF fighter group had a worse day than the above but haven't found it yet.

On the 26 June action, 56FG lost 5 a/c outright, with 7 damaged (2 listed as "Cat E" and written off upon return to England). According to II/JG26 records, it sustained no losses in this action.

[drgondog]

Out of curiosity who else besides II/JG26 engaged 8th AF on June 26, 1943? The 4th also had claims... Did JG 26 or LW records discuss damaged ships on the 26th?

At any rate, even if all the 56th claims for that day were 'imaginary' (one of the these was Bob Johnson) then losing 5 in one day for zero score was down the list from the 20th and 55th FG losses (Nov 43 and Feb 44) and certainly the 4th FG losses on two missions on D-Day where they lost 8 for zero claims.

[drgondog]

Mike - I'm looking for a 'bad beat' on a single group and so far the P-38's from 9th and 12AF look to be at the top and I know of a 9 Mustang loss in the pacific that was all weather but none of the pilots ever returned.

On your listings, for example, 3/29/44 had claims for 43.5 air/16 ground and of the 8AF fighter losses (I have 13 lost, you have 18) I have 4 lost air to air with the 4th losing 3 of those. The bad weather day of June 19 claimed all of the 16 (my sources) fighter losses with the 361st losing 6.

The worst single one you mentioned - June 6 - had total claims of 23 air and 5 ground for 27 losses (my source)... of that total all 8 of the air to air were inflicted on 4th (including ex 4th FG McPharlin who was with 339th but 'tagged along' with 4th).. and those were in two separate missions.. This is still the worst/most lopsided I have been able to find so far.

We covered the other LW achievements over the 4th. The 355th lost 4 on one bounce to I/JG11 (one possibly due to his own bombs) on June 7th which was its worst of the war.

Mike, what sources do you rely on the most?

I have found fewer 'cross correlation' errors between all my microfilm research on the 4th, 56th, 352/355 and 357 and Kent Miller's "Fighter Units and Pilots of the 8th AF" than any other source so far - so you will get these from me most of the time. After that Freemans Mighty 8th Diary was a long time source for me but I found a fair amount of errors in it (helluva project to try to sort all of it out).

[shooshoobaby]

Bill - I should be a little more diligent when I look these up. Ex. 3 - 29 -44 I see there were 3 lost to accidents and 2 to AA.
On 6 - 10 - 44 the 78th lost 9 to enemy Fighters
6 -12 - 44 353d lost 9 '' '' ''
3 - 4 - 44 363d lost 11 '' ''' '''
The reference I use the most is the 4 volume set by Paul Andrews
1) Heavy Bombers of the Mighty Eighth - by name / serial #
2) Mighty Eighth Roll of Honor- 45, 000 names , macr , group etc. for Bomb crews and Fighter Pilots KIA, WIA, MIA , POW , evadees
3)8th AF Combat Chronology - day by day losses of Bomb and Fighter Groups. Names , location , macr includes accidents.
4) 8th AF Bomb Group Chronology - day by day Bomb Group losses. Lists bombers lost by Group. A/ C # , crew list , macr.
This study was commissioned by 8th Air Force Memorial Museum Foundation as " Project Bits and Pieces "
I also have Miller's 2 volume set and about a 300 book library.
Mike