325th FG vs Ju-52

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Good point Nick

But still close enough to get shot down.
What did he do that an ordinary crew could not accomplish?
Was it usual or unusual to have such an individual within a combat unit?

Cheers
Stig

By January 1944 there were few places in German-held Western Europe that Allied aircraft could not reach and certainly none in Italy.

As Brian said, this was a Prüfflug, so taking the Prüfmeister along makes sense — He'd probably have to sign off the aircraft as serviceable.

[Leendert]

Lots about the task of a Prüfmeister here: https://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/i...der-luftwaffe/

In German.

Regards,
Leendert

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

By January 1944 there were few places in German-held Western Europe that Allied aircraft could not reach and certainly none in Italy.

As Brian said, this was a Prüfflug, so taking the Prüfmeister along makes sense — He'd probably have to sign off the aircraft as serviceable.

Quite right Nick

I basically tried to avoid a lengthy discussion of what a front line ment in 1944.
The main point I am trying to make is why a Prüfmeister was needed in a front line unit! I can see a certain merit to have one as an intermediate between a manufacturer and the client (Luftwaffe or others)
Not even in peacetime, in Sweden, did we find a need for such an individual.
The proofing flights (at least post war) were made by regular crews, quite capable of checking the things needed to be checked and state if the aircraft was serviceable or not.

Sorry Leendert but your site does not answer the pertinent question.
Was this individual a "one off" or were the Prüfmeisters found everywhere?

Cheers
Stig

[focusfocus]

"His" Do-217 is very mysterious...an identification error?..but with what?,there are not many two-tailed planes.

I am looking for the italian ANR..but very little information
michel

[Freddy]

To tell the truth I came across this thread almost by chance while I was looking for information about two Savoia Marchetti SM 82 of 9./TG1 (ex MM 61527 and ex MM 61528) that were shot down during the air battle of 30 January 1944 in the Udine area or even the next day.

From some German documents, it appears instead that the date was 31 January 1944. The mission report of the 325th FG also mentions 3 SM 82 shot down on 31 January 1944 by Lts. Hoffmann, Dunkin and Rynne.
The strange thing is that, while the German documents cited, some cards showing the personal data of the deceased and two pages of the register of the losses of 9./TG1, report the day 31 as the date of the deaths, but all the Italian documents, the “Verbale dei Carabinieri”, the report of the firefighters brigade and the report of the parish priest of the country, all give the date of January 30th. In the crash, one of the planes hit a house, demolishing it and causing the death of the two elderly people who lived there.
I initially thought that among the 11 Ju 52 presumably shot down by the 325th FG, the two SM 82s, perhaps had been misidentified, in the heat of the fight, as Ju 52s, but I had some doubts since the silhouettes of the two planes are completely different.
Among other things, three SM 82, clearly identified, appear in the claims of the day after.
At the moment I have not reached a certain conclusion and I do not understand who was wrong, if the Germans and the Americans or if, instead, the Italians.

However, the reason for this post is another.

For more than ten years I have been collecting data to reconstruct all the phases of the air battle in the area of ​​Udine area on January 30, 1944.
There were many losses, most suffered by the Luftwaffe, and to date, I am trying to find the various crash points.
It is therefore with great surprise that I discovered that among the planes shot down that day there was also a Ju 88. Of course, among the 325th FG claims there are also two Ju 88s, one claimed by Col. Baseler and another by Lt. Dorety, but I always thought it might have been a misidentification.

I live in a village over which the battle had taken place and by now I thought I knew the exact, or at least probable, location of a lot of crash points but in the many interviews done years ago with eyewitnesses of the time I had only heard of B-24s , B17s and German, Italian or American single-engine fighters, no one (or maybe just one, but vaguely) has ever mentioned a twin-engined aircraft.

Now, in the post by Matti Salonen of November 29, 2021, I find the data of this Ju 88 of 2./LG1.

From a subsequent verification I found the same data also on page. 517 of “A History of the Mediterranean Air War” Vol. 4. The latter says also that the plane was shot down, during a transfer flight, north of Grado.

Matti Salonen instead cites Terco (actually Terzo) 30 km south of Udine. Anyway the position is the same as Terzo is north of Grado and about 30 km south of Udine.
I then remembered that one of the old men I had interviewed, unfortunately now deceased, had spoken vaguely of a two-engine plane that had crashed near Terzo, in the countryside east of the village, on that date.

Since a Bf 109 of 6./JG 53 had also crashed inside the village on January 30, 1944, I thought that the old man had confused memories about the crash point and the two engines. It would seem instead that he was right and today I regret not having asked him to accompany me on the spot.

After making sure that the location and date matched, I tried to find more information about the plane, the unit and the crew and here I had other surprises.
None of the crew members appear to be present either in the Kracker Luftwaffe Archive database, nor on the Aircrew Remembrance Society website, nor the names resultied from an Internet search.

Looking for the Vbkz L1-Gl I found, again in Aircrew Rem Soc., that it belonged to a Ju 88A-4/Trop, Verk n. 140284 of IV/LG1, shot down north of Tobruk on 25 October 1942. The pilot, Uffz Wolfgang Kramar and all the rest of the crew are still MIA. No results also in the search for Wolfgang Kramar.

I then consulted the Junkers Production List doing a search for the Werk no. 3892.This should correspond to a Ju 88A-4 and the caption says: “LUFTWAFFE, ?? + ??, ??. ??. ?? to Jul. 43, damaged by undercarriage failure on take off from Sechtschinskaja while with KG51."

Last question.
If, as Mediterranean Air War says, the aircraft was shot down on a transfer flight, where was it going when it found itself in the middle of an air battle?
The 2./LG1 at the end of January 1944 was based in Varel in Lower Saxony and then in northern Germany, so a little too far from the Udine area even for a daily transfer flight.
It could also be that the plane was being transferred to the III Gruppe which was based in Aviano, but if that were the case, it certainly had chosen the wrong date and destination for that flight.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Freddy

Feels to me that the date 31 Jan 1944 is correct.
I don't believe both the Luftwaffe and the USAAF have made a date mistake.

With regard to 2./LG 1 I have no specific base for it on the date in question, but according to Peter Taghon
the Gruppe itself (I./LG 1) was based at Aviano between 23 Jan and 10 March 1944. As far as I can see
he doesn't mention Varel at any time for the whole Geschwader.
I./LG 1 had abandoned Eleusis in Greece for Italy.
The aircraft itself was on a "Werkstattflug" which I take meaning a testflight, rather than transit flight, made
after some repairs, hence our "Prüfmeister" onboard.

B Rgds
Stig

[Freddy]

Thanks Stig, you're absolutely right. I had seen, on http://www.ww2.dk, by mistake, the date between December 5, 1944 to March 18, 1945.

In reality, the I./LG1 had moved from Eleusis / Daphni to Aviano on January 22, 1944.

It is very likely, as you say, that the Ju 88 was on a test flight at the time of attack on airports and was involved in the final stages of the air battle.

The Terzo area (or more exactly Terzo d’Aquileia) is located about 30 km south of the area of ​​the initial fighting, when the greatest number of aircraft had been shot down, around 12.00.

Then the clashes continued until about 12.30 when the bomber formations had arrived at the sea in the Grado area.

After the first clashes, the formations of fighters, both Allied and German or Italian, had spread out over a large area south of Udine, with sporadic attacks on bombers and single duels between fighters.

Our Ju 88 had probably been intercepted during the last stages of the battle, perhaps while trying to get away and take refuge at the Ronchi dei Legionari airport, about ten kilometers to the east, where the Stab KG 76 was based and which had not been involved in the battle.

[tanzebau]

Hello,


in the report "Fifteenth Air Force - Counter Air Operation of 30 and 31 January 1944, Villaorba - Maniago - Lavariano - Udine - Aviano - Klagenfurt" it's mentioned that:

...
Execution

30th January 1944
Flying up the center of the ADRIATIC at altitudes less than 50 feet, 60 P-47's of the 325th Fighter Group reached the VILLAORBA area 10/11 minutes before the first waves of heavy bombers and escort arrived the assigned targets. Fifty to sixty enemy aircraft including Me 109's, Fw 190's, Ma 202's, Ju 52's, Ju 88's, Hs 126's and Fi 156's were in the main caught completely by surprise. The planes that were airborne by the time the P-47's arrived had gained altitude, others were still taxiing and taking-off and the resistance encountered lacked organization both in numbers and tactics. Obvious disorganization in the enemy foghter opposition during this period is ample testimony to the success of the plan. That transport, bombers, and miscellaneous aircraft were encountered is further evidence of the surprise achieved, for these planes were apparently attempting to reach alternate landing grounds and dispersal areas for safety.
In the aerial feee-for-all which followed 36 enemy aircraft, including 14 Me 109's, 5 Ma 202's and 11 Ju 88's were destroyed, 8 enemy fighters were claimed as probably destroyed.
....
Villaorba Landing Ground
52 aircraft were present at the time of the 30 January attack. Of this total one Ju 88 was destroyed, while 20 Ju 88's and 11 single engine fighters were destroyed or damaged.
...
Lavariano Landing Ground
As a result of the 30 January attack, 1 Ju 88, 1 FW 58, 1 W34, 2 Me 110's and 10 single engine fighters, a total of 15 aircraft, were either destroyed or damaged.


And from another allied document it's mentioned that:


VILLAORBA AIRDROME - ATTACK OF 30th JANUARY
1. Attack

...

Claims by fighters - (P-47) 46:6:0 destroyed including:
13 Me109
1 Fw190
11 Ju-52
16 Ma-202
2 Ju-88
1 Do-217
1 Hs-126
1 Fi-156
....
3. Results

Photographs of the same day show 18 Ju-88 and 7 single engine fighters as probably destroyed or damaged.

[ClinA-78]

I regret not having asked him to accompany me on the spot

That is/was the key success of our researches, Freddy.

Bye/ciao from Belgium

Nicola

[Freddy]

Hi Nicholas, I'm happy to hear from you again after a couple of years of being stopped due to Covid.

I know, I know.

How many times have I regretted not paying much attention to details, which years ago I considered not important or fruit of the imagination of eyewitnesses? In the following years, however, they became interesting and made it possible to solve cases that were not yet known at the time.

Unfortunately, however, time has brought away many of those old men who remembered and now there remains only the regret of not having taken their memories into due consideration.

In one of the next few weeks I should meet an elder from Terzo d'Aquileia who, at least so it would seem, knows of another crash site, but from what I understand it should be of a Bf 109 and to the southwest of the village. I'm just waiting for him to come back from vacation then we'll go and see.
I still hope it is the c/p of the Ju 88.