info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber

[Foute Man]

On a Luftwaffe Collector's siteFound some pictures on the internet of a Stab KG 51 He111 9K+AA aircraft, you might have seen them before. Have some questions about the aircraft:

A - According to the source this the aircraft in wich Joseph Kammhuber who was KG 51's Geschwader Commandant early 1940. Is it Kammhuber's aircraft?

B - Some questions about the logo:
1 The background is a shield, what was the background colour?
2 The Logo is made up from 3 other logo's: the KG Edelweiss at the bottom, I Gruppe upper left, but the logo upper right is a question for me. The backgroundcolour is different than the logo upper left (yellow?) but it appears to be a I Gruppe sign again. Anybody has a better picture of the logo, in colour perhaps?

C - Is the third digit (A) in green or blue?

D - See the backscript of the pictures for info about location (sorry, but my German is very poor). What is the possible date this aircraft crashed?

groeten!!!!

PS: collector's site: click here (anybody of you happen to be the blogger?)

[Foute Man]

missing picture

[Peter Cornwell]

Yes, this is almost certainly the KG51 Geschwaderkommodore aircraft of KAMMHUBER. However, despite what the caption says IMO it is not the aircraft in which he was brought down on June 3, 1940, for that was a Junkers Ju88, the unit having started to exchange its Heinkel He111s for the new type the previous March. The aircraft shown is probably the original superceded aircraft awaiting disposal.

Other members of this forum will be able to offer you better advice than I on the three Gruppe emblems shown and the possible background colour of the shield, but the third digit would have been Stabs Green.

[F19Gladiator]

Hello 'Foute Man' and Peter,
I just checked out your new book Peter, on the BoF, and got a bit confused as the back side writing of the photo, translated into English, reads:

“During the last mission over France our Kommandeur, Oberst, Kammhuber, was shot down, we found his aircraft dismantled at a shelter by an airport. 1940”

.....and your description clearly indicates a Ju 88 when describing how the aircraft was downed as the He 111 did not have any dive brakes.

The writing on the photo can of course be wrong regarding which aircraft he was in when downed.

Regarding the emblem:
This is the emblem of Stab/KG 51 as it is published in "Luftwaffe Embleme 1939-1945", Ketley and Rolfe, Bernard & Graefe Verlag.


This can give the indication that the upper right emblem had a red background colour.
The large shield on which the three emblems are located on the He 111 is more difficult. A darker shade of Blue??? Only a guess from my side.

Regards
Goran

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

While probably the commander's previous aircraft, 9K+AA was apparently not flown by him at the time of its forced landing. According to Gillet's "Les Victorires de l'Aviation de Chasse Francaise" Vol 1, unnumbered pages for photo section, Gillet lists the unit as "Anfklärungsschwarm I./KG51," and the pilot as Obfw Kurt Ernst. It was shot down at 16:00 hours on 12 May on "la ferme Pommard."

In Peter Cornwell's new book: TBoFrT&N the respective entry is:

"May 12, 1940: Stab I./KG51 Heinkel He111H. Believed shot down by S/Lt Hutter of GC II/1 during reconnaissance sortie and belly-landed on Ferme de Pommard, 5 km south-east of Chablis 3.15 p.m. Possibly also attacked by Adj Dumas of DAT Châteaudun, and Capt de Rivals-Mazères of CEAM. Oberfw K. Ernst, Oberfw M. Groth, Fw L. Gehring, and Fw J. Hofbauer all captured unhurt. Aircraft a write-off."

My note with this loss speculates that Peter didn't pick up the aircraft code as 9K+AA because it didn't fit the unit of crew assignment, although Gillet's photo clearly shows the aircraft with that code.

I think that this identification further strengthens the argument that this was a "hand-me-down" aircraft from the Geschwader Stabschwarm that had only recently re-equipped with the Ju88.

Regards,

[Norbert Schuchbauer]

In the loss report it shows an aircraft from the Stabsschwarm but the crew being from I./KG 51. The all returned from POW camp unhurt.

I think you are onto something regarding the hand me down aircraft Larry.

Regards,

Norbert

[Foute Man]

Thanks for all replies on my questions. I noticed the only KG 51 heinkels that were being discussed on this forum are 1./KG 51 aircraft like 9K+GH and 9K+IH

Maybe 1./KG 51 was one of the last KG 51 units to fly the He111. The only other KG 51 Heinkels I know to have crashed in France in may are 9K+EB and 9K+DD. Should be more I guess, but these are the only ones I found on the internet.

But it is plausible to say this aircraft had been flown by Stab KG 51 (and most likely Kammhuber has flown it), but during the invasion in France it was assigned to 1./KG 51 and for some reason there had been no time to repaint it?

groeten

[Peter Cornwell]

Hi Larry,

Spot on, but you'll find that I do quote the full codes on p253 of BoFrT&N but failed to make the connection in my earlier post. An Aufklarungsschwarm generally formed part of a Geschwader or Gruppe Stabsstaffel & flew pre/post attack recce sorties for the unit.

[Chris Goss]

Not sure if this helps but I was in touch with Kammhuber's BF (Werner Luederitz) who confirms that 3 Jun 40, they were in a Ju 88 as well as 29 May 40 when they were hit by Flak over Dunkirk and crash-landed their Ju 88 at Sandhofen (I have a photo of the crash-lanbed Ju 88 on this day). No mention is it was 'AA' but Luederitz, after being returned 14 days later, was then shot down on 12 Aug 40 in another 'AA'

[F19Gladiator]

Hi,
Today some more photos are up for auction. One showing the discussed emblem and another showing the He 111 with this emblem behind a III./KG 51 Ju 88, with code 9K+AA.
http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-German-Phot...1%7C240%3A1318

http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-German-Phot...1%7C240%3A1318

http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-German-Phot...1%7C240%3A1318

Must be quite unusual to have two a/c of different makes but with the same codes - 9K+AA - under one roof!








Cheers
Goran