Question regarding loss of 2 Bomber Gruppenkomandeure on 22 April 1943

[Matti Salonen]

Thanks Andrey for additional info. Here the rest I have for those days:

1943-04-22, Fl.Führer Krim, Bf 110E-2, 4397, Pl.Qu. 7657, Flakbeschuß. Bruch 20 %.
1943-04-22, 15./JG 52, Bf 109G-2, 13761, 5, Motorstörung. Pl.Qu. 76772, Bruch 20 %.
1943-04-22, III/KG 3, Ju 88A-4, 144500, Fl.Pl. Bagerowo, Fahrwerkschaden. Bruch 30 %.
1943-04-22, III/KG 51, Ju 88A-4, 144213, Fl.Pl. Samorsk, Fahrwerkschaden. Bruch 75 %.
1943-04-22, III/KG 51, Ju 88A-4, 883772, Fl.Pl. Bagerowo, Fahrwerkschaden. Bruch 30 %.
1943-04-22, III/KG 55, He 111H-16, 8327, Fl.Pl. Samorsk, Reifenschaden bei Landung. Bruch 50 %.

1943-04-11, 5./JG 3, Bf 109G-2, 13599, Werchno, Notlandung. Bruch 30 %.
1943-04-11, 8./JG 3, Bf 109G-4, 14877, Ssirotzkij, südwestlich Temrjuk (Pl.Qu. 76/7/2), Notlandung infolge Motorstörung. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Gefr Nettingsmeier, Wilhelm, verletzt
1943-04-11, Stab JG 3, Bf 109G-4, 19507, < 3, Schibik I, Südwestlich Abinskaja (Pl.Qu. 85/143), Absturz um 12.15 Uhr nach Luftkampf mit LaGG-3.
Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Olt Walz, Albrecht, +
1943-04-11, 5./JG 52, Bf 109G-2, 14822, Fl.Pl. Anapa, Beim Start ausgebrochen. Bruch 15 %.
1943-04-11, 6./JG 52, Bf 109G-4, 14898, 3 gelbe, 3 km nördlich Nishne-Bakanskaja bei Krimskaja (Pl.Qu. 75261), Absturz um 10.40 Uhr nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer (Staffelführer) Ofw Nemitz, Willi, +
1943-04-11, 7./JG 52, Bf 109G-4, 15208, Fl.Pl. Aman, Beim Start ausgebrochen. Bruch 75 %.
1943-04-11, 15./JG 52, Bf 109G-2, 13630, 2, Fl.Pl. Taman, Beim Start ausgebrochen. Bruch 60 %.
Flugzeugführer Lt Vice, Nikola, verletzt
1943-04-11, 5./KG 55, He 111H-16, 8480, G1+FN, Bei Fl.Pl. Saki, Absturz bei Landung. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Lt Kobs, Heinz, +
Beobachter Uffz Gräler, Gustav, +
Bordfunker Uffz Linke, Fritz, +
Bordmechaniker Fw Hirschmann, Ulrich, +
Bordschütze Gefr Porst, Ernst, +

Matti

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Paul,

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Did the Soviet side capture any more prisoners that day? According to the quote in the first post, a source claimed that Thiel also became a POW.

No. BF from He111H-16 1G+AD was saved by Romanians, the rest of the crew have drowned.

Correction to the Ju88 off Poti: Beobachter and Bordfunker, not BS, have drowned. My typo, sorry.

By the way, results of the Poti raid were poor, mainly due to use of smokescreens. A fuel oil pipeline was damaged. Visual effect was probably impressive but damage was insignificant.

Matti, thank your for the lists 11. and 22.Apr.43. Some details are unknown for me.

1943-04-11, 6./JG 52, Bf 109G-4, 14898 ... Absturz um 10.40 Uhr nach Luftkampf.

"10.40 Uhr" - is it the exact time? What is the source?
Can't find corresponding Soviet claim despite numerous claims during that day. It is strange, commonly were several clams per one real loss.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Matti Salonen]

According to my notes from NVM.

Matti

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Thank you, Matti!

Some Soviet claims are with the uncertain time. Hope to find additional documents this year.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Matti Salonen

Thanks Andrey for additional info. Here the rest I have for those days:

Matti

Matti,

Thank you very much for taking the time to provide that comprehensive list! Clearly there was a lot of bomber activity on 22 April, but just the three aircraft lost, which is a small number for this period of the war. The losses on the 11th don’t appear to have been much more significant. Perhaps the Luftwaffe was experiencing serviceability problems, so experienced crews flew a large share of the missions. A look at Michael Holm’s website seems to support this hypothesis, III./KG3 in particular had few aircraft available.

Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov

Hello Paul,

No. BF from He111H-16 1G+AD was saved by Romanians, the rest of the crew have drowned.

Correction to the Ju88 off Poti: Beobachter and Bordfunker, not BS, have drowned. My typo, sorry.

By the way, results of the Poti raid were poor, mainly due to use of smokescreens. A fuel oil pipeline was damaged. Visual effect was probably impressive but damage was insignificant.

Best regards,
Andrey

Hello Andrey,

Thank you very much! It must have been difficult to survive a ditching in the Black Sea. The information about Poti is interesting, I didn't know that Soviet forces used large-scale air defence smokescreens at this stage of the war. Was this a routine measure, or was it a trial?

Since I get the impression that you are researching this air battle, may I ask whether you think that it was a significant influence on later events, in terms of its effect on the relative effect on the strength of the German and Soviet forces?

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Paul,

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

I didn't know that Soviet forces used large-scale air defence smokescreens at this stage of the war. Was this a routine measure, or was it a trial?

A routine measure. And AA fire, of course, played the role.

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

whether you think that it was a significant influence on later events, in terms of its effect on the relative effect on the strength of the German and Soviet forces?

The research in the process. I don't want to make the premature conclusions.

Regards,
Andrey

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov

Hello Paul,

A routine measure. And AA fire, of course, played the role.

The research in the process. I don't want to make the premature conclusions.

Regards,
Andrey

Andrey,

Thank you for clarifying. I'll await the results of your research! In the meantime, I've copied below the chronological list of officer casualties that I extracted from 'Career Summaries', most of which should be connected to the Kuban fighting. I am sure there are a couple of superfluous names and many more absent ones, but here it is, perhaps it is of some use:

DENK, Gustav. 13.02.43 KIA – Bf 109 G-2 (Black 13 or Yellow 2) hit by Russian AA fire and blew up in the air during a low-level attack near Krasnodar in North Caucasia.
BIBRA, Ernst, Freiherr von. 15.02.43 MIA – in Ju 88 A-4 (9K+BD) that crashed vic Slavyansk in North Caucasia.
ICKENROTH, ? . c.03.43 Hptm., Staka “He 111 Staffel” KIA during Kuban bridgehead supply operations.
KRÄUSSEL, Oskar. 06.03.43 in KGr.z.b.V. 172, KIA – in Ju 52 crash in the vicinity of Varenikovskaja in the Taman Peninsula area.
SCHWEITZER, Hans. 19.03.43 - † in crash in Black Sea in Hs 126 (TL+VK))
NEMITZ, Willi (“Altvater”). 11.04.43 KIA – in Bf 109 G-6 shot down by Russian fighters near Anapa in North Caucasia.
WALZ, Albrecht. 11.04.43, KIA - Bf 109 G-4 (Black <3+-) shot down by a LaGG-3 SW of Abiskaya in Pl.Qu. 85143 in N Caucasia.
JUNGKLAUS, Siegfried. 22.04.43 MIA – in Ju 88 A-4 (5K+BD) that failed to return from an attack on the Soviet naval base at Poti on the coast of the Black Sea.
THIEL, Erich. 22.04.43 KIA – in He 111 H-16 (1G+AD) shot down in Pl.Qu. 7532 by a Russian fighter during a heavy raid on the Black Sea ports of Poti and Gelendzhik. One source claims that he died in captivity.
LUEG (LÜG), Albrecht. 28.04.43 Hptm. and Staka 7.(H)/Aufkl.Gr. 32, MIA in Fw 189 A-3 shot down by AA fire over the Taman Peninsula.
HABERDA, Helmut. 08.05.43 Lt., 5./JG 52 KIA in air combat (other sources say by AA fire over Kuban) - Bf 109 G-4 (Black 7 + -) W of Krymsk.
EHRENBERG, Ernst. 10.05.43 Hptm. in III./JG 52, KIA – Bf 109 G-4 (yellow 8) hit by AA fire over Taman; he drowned near the shore of the Black Sea apparently tangled in his parachute.
KOCH, Ernst. 13.05.43 Hptm. and Kdr. III./KG 4, KIA – in He 111 H (5J+FD) that crashed into the Black Sea soon after take-off from Saki/Crimea.
BOOS, Johann. 16.05.43 Ofw. in 9./KG 55, POW - in He 111 H-16 (G1+AY) that failed to return from a raid on the railway station in Krapotkin/N Caucasia (another account says the railway station at Armavir) - evaded capture for three days.
RITZENBERGER, Karl. 24.05.43 Oblt., 6./JG 52 lost Bf 109 G-4 (Yellow 10 + -) crashed into the sea off Noworossijsk, 40 km SE of Anapa.
MIETHIG, Rudolf. 10.06.43 KIA – Bf 109 G-2 (Yellow 1) collided with a Russian plane over the Taman Peninsula and plunged to his death.
HARTMANN, Helmut. 11.06.43 Oblt. and pilot in 2.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 100, MIA – in Ju 88 D-1 that failed to return from a recce of the Tikhoretsk area in North Caucasia.
BRENNER, Günter. 18.06.43 Oblt. and Beobachter (observer) in Nachtaufkl.St. 4, MIA – in Do 217 K that failed to return from a recce mission over the Slavyansk – Krasnodar – Timoshevskaya area in North Caucasia.
LEITERITZ, Walter. 02.07.43 KIA – in BV 138 that failed to return from a patrol over the Black Sea.
QUAST, Werner (“Quax”). 07.08.43 POW – rammed by an Il-2 over the Black Sea coast, baled out and captured by the Russians.
HOLZMANN, Heinz. 19.08.43 Hptm. (Beobachter) and Staka 1.(H)/Aufkl.Gr. 21, MIA – in Fw 189 A-2 shot down by AA fire over the Taman Peninsula in North Caucasia.
LÜDERS, Günther. 19.08.43 in 1.(H)/Aufkl.Gr. 21 (NAGr. 9), MIA – in Fw 189 A-2 shot down by AA fire over the Taman Peninsula area.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

BRENNER, Günter. 18.06.43 Oblt. and Beobachter (observer) in Nachtaufkl.St. 4, MIA – in Do 217 K that failed to return from a recce mission over the Slavyansk – Krasnodar – Timoshevskaya area in North Caucasia.

This Do217 was certainly downed by AA armoured train. It's W.Nr mentioned in the Soviet documents correctly.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov

This Do217 was certainly downed by AA armoured train. It's W.Nr mentioned in the Soviet documents correctly.

Best regards,
Andrey

Andrey,

Thank you for the additional detail! Where was the train stationed? Do you have any information about the Johann Boos loss on 16 May? It's surprising he evaded capture for several days deep in Soviet territory.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Paul,

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Where was the train stationed?

The armoured train was the mobile system

Timoshevskaya station was without AA defence at that time, and German recce a/c flew over the station night by night on the low level and bombed it from time to time. To change the situation, AA train was moved from Kropotkin. Then Do217 have used this stereotype tactics ones again, the AA train have downed him by suddenly opened fire at close range.

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Do you have any information about the Johann Boos loss on 16 May? It's surprising he evaded capture for several days deep in Soviet territory.

Not surprising. It is a great steppe, land with sparse population and sparse military posts.

Regards,
Andrey