Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12th July 2006, 20:18
micky micky is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: reggio emilia, italy
Posts: 96
micky
july 1943, Lancasters over north italy

Hello friends, i have a question: On the night between 15th and 16th july 1943, Lancasters from 50, 9 and 617 Squadron hit some electrical stations in north italy (San Polo and Arquata Scrivia). Two Lanc was lost, but the other join their base in north africa. There, if remember correctly, they stay until the 21 july, when returning in England they hit Livorno Harbour.

Well, on the night between 17th and 18th july, six Lanc hit the Electrical power station of Reggio Emilia, and any source i have found tell me that they was from 617 Squadron, and was they that hit San Polo.

Thanks to the 617 Sqn Operation Book, i know that the 617's Lanc remains in africa until 21 july, how is possible that they hit Reggio Emilia? Thanks in advance.

Michele
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12th July 2006, 21:08
Steve49 Steve49 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 270
Steve49 is on a distinguished road
Re: july 1943, Lancasters over north italy

According to 'Beyond the dams to the Tirpitz' the 617 Squadron's twelve aircraft bombed a power plant at Aquata Scriva and a transformer station at San Polo D'Enza on night 15/16 July. They then remained at Blida, Algeria until 24th July; bombing Livorno (Leghorn) on the return trip.

So it doesn't seem that they carried out an operation on the 17/18th July.

Regards

Steve Pegge
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12th July 2006, 23:28
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,917
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: july 1943, Lancasters over north italy

According to the "Bomber Command war Diaries" by Midddlebrook, the second raid was not on the night of 17-18th, but on the night of 16-17th:

Quote:
"18 Lancasters of 5 Group attempted raids on two more trnasformer stations in Northern Italy. 7 aircraft bombed the Cislago station accurately but the second target was not located and an alternative target was bombed instead. 1 Lancaster lost.

On the night of 17-18, BC only flew four OTU sorties over France.

Now the losses:
On 15-16th: 3 losses/24 bombers
Lancaster III JA679 of 9 Sqn lost over Italy (1 KIA, 6 POW)
Lancaster III DV167 of 50 Sqn lost over Italy (7 KIA)
Lancaster III EE190 of 61 Sqn wrecked while trying to land in Blida, ALgeria (crew OK)

On 16-17th: 2 losses/18 bombers
Lancaster III DV183 of 207 Sqn lost over Italy (6 KIA, 1 POW)
Lancaster III ED538 of 467 Sqn crashed and burned on a North African base (crew unhurt)

Note: losses are higher than the figures of the BC War Diaries, because the latter only considered missing aircraft, not the one wrecked in friendly tereitory.

The interesting part being that these bombers apparently also landed in North Africa.

And then the return, on the night of 24th-25th:
Quote from BC War Diaries: "33 Lancaster of 5 Group returning from North Africa bombed Leghorn docks but the target was covered by haze and bombing was scattered. No aircraft lost"

To have 33 bombers for returning, you have to combine both raids (well, actually according to the above, 37 Lancaster should have been in North Africa).

Hope this helps
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 13th July 2006, 14:04
micky micky is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: reggio emilia, italy
Posts: 96
micky
Re: july 1943, Lancasters over north italy

Thank you Laurent, very interesting source:
"Quote:
"18 Lancasters of 5 Group attempted raids on two more trnasformer stations in Northern Italy. 7 aircraft bombed the Cislago station accurately but the second target was not located and an alternative target was bombed instead. 1 Lancaster lost."

The mean may be taht Reggio Emilia Power Station was bombed by some lanc of 5 Group, but not they from 617 Sqn, and that Reggio was the alternative target, or not?

Thank again

Mick
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 14th July 2006, 09:31
micky micky is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: reggio emilia, italy
Posts: 96
micky
Re: july 1943, Lancasters over north italy

Hi friends, from the Diary of the 467 RAAF squadron:

"15/16-7-1943, Cisliago:
467 Sq sent 5 Lancasters to join a small force attacking the electrical transformer station at Cisliago, and then to fly on to North Africa. F/L Carmichael, “A” Flight Commander, was attacked by a night-fighter which closed to 40 yards. Cannon fire killed the navigator. Sgt A.E. Murray, and damaged most of the maps. The crew reached North Africa without a navigator. F/L Hany Locke’s aircraft was hit by flak and damaged. One fuel tank was holed and, when they reached North Africa, they crash landed out of fuel."

May be the date was wrong, night of 16/17 instead of 15/16, the squadron involved was the 207. Anyone have some data from this squadron? Thanks

Mick
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 14th July 2006, 10:49
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,917
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: july 1943, Lancasters over north italy

Murray was not Australian but English: Sgt (Nav.) Eric Anthony Murray (note different order of names) is buried in El Alia cemetery and his death date is given as the 17th of July 1943, so is coherent with a raid on the 16th-17th (the 207 Sqn loss this night took off from UK on 2232 onthe 16th, so the bombing should have taken place in the early hours of the 17th).

Also the 467 Sqn that crash-landed and burned in North Africa on the 16th-17th has the following crew:
F/O H B Locke RAAF
Sgt W G Holt
Sgt H H assall
Sgt F Townsend
Sgt R Butler
Sgt F J Champ
Sgt T Munro
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 14th July 2006, 11:55
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,917
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: july 1943, Lancasters over north italy

Confirmed with the ORB of 467 Sqn on line:
http://www.467463raafsquadrons.com/4...3/DSC01600.jpg

The operation was on the night of 16th-17th July.

Detail for each five crew:
http://www.467463raafsquadrons.com/4...3/DSC01621.jpg
http://www.467463raafsquadrons.com/4...3/DSC01622.jpg

The strange part is that there is nothing about the return of the four remaining Lancasters from North Africa in this ORB, at least in July.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 14th July 2006, 12:18
micky micky is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: reggio emilia, italy
Posts: 96
micky
Smile Re: july 1943, Lancasters over north italy

Thank you Laurent, in exchange, the 417 Squadron ORB is available here:

http://www.dambusters.org.uk/docs/recordbook.pdf

some personal notes: as historical researcher about air war over my town, is a sad thing that reasearching over british planes is more difficult than researching about American planes. Yankees have a lot of online associations, veteran forums, missions summary and a lot of other interesting stuffs. The British side of the matter has ever been more and more difficult, a warm thank to the 12O'clock High forum members to their patience and thier gently

Mick
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 14th July 2006, 13:34
Steve49 Steve49 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 270
Steve49 is on a distinguished road
Re: july 1943, Lancasters over north italy

I guess the 617 Sqn ORB confirms that the first operation took place during the night 15/16 July. As mentioned in the ORB and in 'Beyond the dams to the Tirpitz' two aircraft suffered minor damage; those flown by F/Lt Munro and F/Lt McCarthy. Acording to the book the bomb-aimer in Munro's aircraft suffered cuts to his face after his panel was hit. He later made a one wheel landing at Blida.

Steve Pegge
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 20th January 2007, 22:01
RossGmann RossGmann is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Burpengary East, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 289
RossGmann is on a distinguished road
Re: july 1943, Lancasters over north italy

Just adding to the pot


Lancaster JA679 Information

Type Lancaster
Serial Number JA679
X1D WS-P
Squadron 9
Operation Reggio Emilia
Date 15th/16th July 1943
The Lancaster casualties this night were from a small force of twenty-four Lancasters, including a dozen crews from No.617 Squadron, who were briefed to continue to airfields in North Africa after attacking targets in Italy. See EE190; DV167 Airborne 2220hrs 15Jul43 from Bardney to attack a transformer station at Reggio Emilia in Northern Italy. Last heard on W/T at 0405 transmitting 'Hit by another aircraft - trying to make base'. This other aircraft is identified as DV183 Lanc.Mk.111/207 Squadron. Shortly afterwards, the Lancaster crashed at Mirandola (Bologna), 30 km NNE of Modena, Italy. Sgt Edwards is buried in Ravenna War Cemetry. F/O Head RNZAF and F/S Merchant RCAF escaped from captivity, the latter being awarded a DFM, which was Gazetted 12Nov43. Both are believed to have got away during the confusion that reigned following Italy's surrender. F/O M.R.Head RNZAF PoW Sgt E.W.Edwards KIA Sgt D.R Walter PoW F/O R.S.Shaw PoW F/S J.F.Merchant RCAF PoW Sgt F.S.Finlay RCAF PoW F/S W.J.McCoombes RCAF Inj Sgt F.S.Finlay was interned in Camps 11A/357, PoW No.140694 with Sgt D.R.Walter< PoW No.140381. F/O M.R.Head and F/S J.F.Merchant both escaped from an Italian PoW Camp No PoW No. (See above). DFM 12Nov43. F/S W.J.McCoombes was confined in Hospital due injuries. No PoW No. F/O R.S.Shaw in Camp L3, PoW No.2599. "


Lancaster DV167
Type Lancaster
Serial Number DV167
X1D VN-M
Squadron 50
Operation Reggio Emilia
Date 15th/16th July 1943

The Lancaster casualties this night were from a small force of twenty-four Lancasters, including a dozen crews from 617 Sqdn, who had been briefed to continue to airfields in North Africa after attacking targets in Italy. See JA679; EE190. Airborne 2225 15Jul43 from Skellingthorpe, tasked to attack a transformer station at Reggio Emiia in Northern Italy, similar to the 9 Sqdn crew. (See JA679 (WS-P) 9 Sqdn). crashed near Traversetolo, 20 km SSE of Parma. Four have no known graves, but both Gunners and Sgt Trowbridge are buried in Milano War cemetery. at 18, Sgt Goff was amongst the youngest airmen killed on Bomber command Operations during 1943. In contrast, Sgt Hood was twice his age. F/L C.H.J.Hunt KIA Sgt W.G.Trowbridge KIA F/O A.D.S.Snell KIA F/S K.A.Barr KIA Sgt W.J.Hood KIA Sgt R.G.W.Goff KIA Sgt R.A.W.wilkinson KIA "

Kind regards

Ross
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Friendly fire WWII Brian Allied and Soviet Air Forces 803 8th July 2023 15:47
Macchis VS P38s 13 July 1943. Ludovico Slongo Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 4 25th June 2006 17:47
Help with identifying German pilot taken prisoner on July 13, 1943 Nikita Egorov Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 16 9th May 2006 11:17
238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940 Jon Allied and Soviet Air Forces 26 24th July 2005 13:10
Me-109 from JG/2 lost july 14, 1943 loiclemarchand Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 4 20th May 2005 16:43


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 15:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net