MTO 23 June 1944

[Nick Beale]

Can anyone tell me the French P-47 unit concerned, the time and location of an inconclusive contact with six Bf 109s on this date.

It seems to have been in NW Italy between Genoa and Alessandria but another reading of the partial map reference I have (O-8571) would put them over Eastern France — it all depends which grid was meant.

P.S. If it helps, the French lost one P-47 to engine failure during the day.

[Xerumbe]

Hi Nick!

I think only II/3 "Dauphiné" and II/5 "Lafayette" owned P47 in june 1944. If you use "Lambert 3" grid O-8571 is over the Alps.The II/3 was sometimes over this place but in july 44. If you use the "North Italian grid" it places the scene north of Genoa. In June the II/5 made some missions in this area. I'm trying to find further informations.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Hi Nick

The French book "Pilotes français sur l'Italie" (French pilots over Italy) describes in detail the activities of French air units over this country from May 1944 to May 1945.

Three pages on 23 June 1944, but no contact with German fighters. GC II/3 and II/5 did not fly, their missions being cancelled by bad weather. Spitfires of GC I/7 and II/7 flew some missions and one was shot down by Flak near Pise, sous-lieutenant Guy Antoine Bouttier being killed.
No P-47 was lost to engine failture this day, but a P-39 (serial 42-13372) of GC III/6 was lost due to a failure of fuel tank off Djidjelli, Algeria, the pilot, second-maitre Marpaud, baling out and being rescued some hours later.

The next day, 24 June 1944, fighters were met: during the second mission of the day of GC II/5 (against a rail bridge south of Ovada), as the P-47s were starting their bombing run, Messerschmits dived out of clouds and surprised them. French pilots all managed to evade the attack and after some aerobatics and many bursts fired by both sides, both formations broke formation without any loss on both sides. The 11 P-47s landed at 1855 hrs at Alto, only two, flown by capitaine Thierry and sergent-chef Lesieur, having suffered some light damage.
No P-47 lost to engine failure reported for this day, only one flown by lieutenant Dugit-Gros of GC II/3 suffering a blown tire when landing at Alto at 1800 hrs after a mission, the pilot being unhurt (serial and damage of aircraft not given by the book).

In the few days before and after 23 June, only one French P-47 was lost according to the book: on 20 June, lieutenant Marill of GC II/3 was hit by Flak during a raid on a bridge at Pisa and had to bail out between Corsica and Italy on the way back, being rescued by a Walrus one hour later.

[Nick Beale]

Thanks everyone. I think that 24 June must be the right day. I have taken another look at the MATAF Intelligence/Operations Summary (extracts attached: they are just about legible) for the 24th and — like me — it is a little confused. The section on Fighter Bombers begins "DAY 24 - (Incomplete)" then goes to "DAF - Additional day 23" then back to "DAY 24 - (Incomplete)"; later, the Enemy Activity paragraph is clear that the encounter was on the 24th.

Incidentally, the summary for 23 June records no air combats or enemy activity. This is a pity because I had been looking for an explanation of a report from MAAF Signals Intelligence on the 23rd that: "In the South of France patrols covered the Rhône Estuary at 13339/1343 when they may have made some contact with Allied fighters and inflicted damage."

By the way, the North Italy Grid must be the correct one because there is a bridge at one of the locations I checked in Italy but none at the same reference on the grid for France.

[Xerumbe]

It is surprising : I read the ORB of these two French units for that day and nothing seems to be in accord with what is written in the document. On my own, I am sure that the unit mentioned in the Document can only be the "Lafayette" in view of the area described but no trace has been left in the ORB. No mention of an aircraft lost or damaged as a result of an engine failure ... Some days before or after some encounters would be match ... but nothing for this day.

[Andrei Demjanko]

Could it be that abbreviation Fr. Gr. in the document means simply Fighter Group and P-47's were in fact USAAF aircraft?

I can see that three other types of abbreviation of the same term Fighter Group (F-G; FG and F/G) had been in use by the person who typed the document

[Nick Beale]

Andrei, I agree that they are not always consistent! However, on 18 June there is a reference to "20 P-47's 4 French Group" in an incident which definitely involved GC 2/5 "Lafayette".

[Andrei Demjanko]

Nick

I have to agree with you. The combat described in the document matches perfectly with the description of combat on 24 June from the French book, posted by Laurent

[MW Giles]

4e EC (Escadre de Chasse) consisted of GC II/3, GC I/4 and GC II/5

US documents I have seen refer to an Escadre as a Group (34e EBM = 34 Group), therefore 4 Fr Group would be 4e EC

Regards


Martin