Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 5th June 2013, 14:57
F for Freddie's Avatar
F for Freddie F for Freddie is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 16
F for Freddie is on a distinguished road
Post Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?

Did the Luftwaffe frequently use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' in the defence of the Reich against the US Bomber formations and their escort fighters?
I am quite new to this forum, but fascinated by this little known possibility. But having read US VIIIth Fighter Command Narratives of Reports based on late 1943. It appears that Pilots including as high as US Flight Colonels reports suggest this is a possibility. They often are reported (generally 'unnumbered') 'old marked' P-38s and P47s engaging in dogfights with their own planes. In one case a unusual marked B24 was reported even observing from distance a 'box' B24s & B17s formation and acting oddly though not in distress.
I know in the heat of battle, friendly fire was common and mistaken identity could be easily done. However the frequency of the Reports and sometimes the detailed descriptions suggest these are not mistaken identity?.
Does any one have any good examples of this they can share?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 5th June 2013, 15:48
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
Posts: 2,084
John Beaman is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?

I think you will find that these reports of "stalking horse" captured Allied a/c are just legend. The Luftwaffe had very few flyable Allied machines and strickly kept them as test/evaulation machines as well as the "Rosario Circus" taking them around to various units so a limited number of Luftwaffe pilots might fly them. The Germans would not have risked losing captured machines in "stalking", much less combat.

I know Allied pilots "saw what they saw", but that does not mean it was true or accurate.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 5th June 2013, 16:18
Nordpol54 Nordpol54 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 306
Nordpol54 is on a distinguished road
Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?

Gents,

sometimes the Luftwaffe did use captured allied a/c in action, nonetheless mostly in special services. For instance a B-17, marked with German coding A3+BB of KG 200 - 12th January 1945 sortie for "Unternehmen Kadella" and 13th/14th January 1945 for "Unternehmen Perlenfischer" (both flights in order to drop agents). Source: "Moskau ruft Heeresgruppe Mitte" by Günther W. Gellermann.
Possibly there is some more to find. I'll give it a try within the next few days.

Cheers
Norbert
__________________
ABYSSUS ABYSSUM INVOCAT
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 5th June 2013, 16:27
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,414
kaki3152 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?

Of course, there is the downing of a P-51B/C on October 29,1944 by Lt. Eldon Coulton (95th FS, 82nd FG).
"About 30 miles southeast of Linz, Austria, an early model Mustang (P-51B or C) painted olive drab, made an attack out of the clouds on several 95th P-38s after tailing them for some time...Coulson finally made fired one short burst...and saw strikes on its canopy and engine. The Mustang rolled over,went straight down and crashed into a mountain...The Mustang had no national insignia, nor a red spinner,which identified the 15th AF P-51s."

Also the 10th Photo Recon reported the following sighting on Dec 26,1944(10 PRG-Ivie)

"Lt Ricci brought back reports of a possible German flown P-47, noting it was painted green with a bright yellow nose and tail sections with black cross markings." The markings are exactly the Luftwaffe color scheme for captured aircraft

I don't think the Luftwaffe used their captured aircraft recklessly, but these are verified sightings.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 5th June 2013, 16:35
Brian Bines Brian Bines is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,095
Brian Bines is on a distinguished road
Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?

Allied 'K' report shows that B17G A3+BB fell to an Allied N/F around 0615hrs on 23rd.Mar.1945 at Luvigny 30 miles W.S.W. of Strasbourg. The aircraft had been on an agent dropping and supply flight, being shot down after it had dropped the agents. Of the eleven man Luftwaffe crew six were taken POW and the rest killed.
Another 'K' report states it was the intention to use a captured P-47 to attempt to recon. to the Bristol area in the latter stages of the Steinbock attacks. To protect the pilot Ofw.Hans Schaefer 3(F)/121, in the event of capture, the aircraft was given German markings, but was to approach the UK using the IFF.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 5th June 2013, 17:05
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,777
Larry deZeng is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?

The stalking or shadowing (Fühlungshalter) aircraft were all German - Ju 88s and Bf 110s - and were assigned to the Luftbeobachterstaffeln 1, 2, 3, 4 and 7.

The captured Allied aircraft were all used by the Versuchsverband Ob.d.L. and in 1944-45 by KG 200.

L.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 5th June 2013, 17:33
Pilot's Avatar
Pilot Pilot is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Srbija
Posts: 1,545
Pilot is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?

Quote:
"About 30 miles southeast of Linz, Austria, an early model Mustang (P-51B or C) painted olive drab, made an attack out of the clouds on several 95th P-38s after tailing them for some time...Coulson finally made fired one short burst...and saw strikes on its canopy and engine. The Mustang rolled over,went straight down and crashed into a mountain...The Mustang had no national insignia, nor a red spinner,which identified the 15th AF P-51s."
This is very interesting story, hope more info will be available one day
__________________
Srecko Bradic
Owner: www.letletlet-warplanes.com
Owner: www.letletlet-warplanes.com/forum
Owner: www.sreckobradic.com
Owner: www.warplanes-zine.com
Email: srecko.warplane@gmail.com
Skype: sreckobradic
Facebook http://www.facebook.com/pages/LetLet...s/308234397758
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 6th June 2013, 00:57
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,414
kaki3152 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?

The excerpt is from "Adorimini: The History of the 82nd FG" by Blake.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 6th June 2013, 13:16
F for Freddie's Avatar
F for Freddie F for Freddie is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 16
F for Freddie is on a distinguished road
Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?

Incidences of possible captured Allied Aircraft used as 'bogies', 'bandits' and 'spotters'
Latter Report seems confirmed. All reports seem to be around same few days!
1.
"Captain Andrews, Blue Flight leader, and Lt. McKean, Green Flight leader of 486
Squadron, fired upon two Me 109s with yellow spinners in the vicinity of Tessel at 13.22 hours. Group leader was notified by bomber intercom. that a German
B-24 was in formation with one of the B-24 boxes. Colonel Mason orbitted with flight to encounter but could not locate the enemy aircraft".
Extract from Intelligence Issue No. 76 U.S. VIII th Fighter Command F.O. 191 VIIIth Bomber Command F.O. 315 26th November 1943
2.
"Lieutenant-Colonel Schilling led 56th Fighter Group" "One unusual B-17 reported near Egmond seen to approach straggler from the south and then broke off and headed
inland." "One lone P-47 with no white band on cowling seen also in area". "Considerable radio jamming". 29th November 1943
3.
"Captain Button, leader of Green Flight, 487th Squadron, saw one P-38 with old American red marking in a dog-fight with P-47s in the vicinity of Rethy at
11.35 hrs. at approximately 29,000 feet. He pulled up to the P-38 and fired his guns at it." Lieutenant Hamilton, of same flight, saw this P-38 attack
a P-47, but could not see if it had fired its guns". Captain Dilling, leader of Yellow Flight, 487th Squadron, reports another agressive P-38 flying up through last box of bombers. There were no visible markings. This plane was seen by Lieutenant Sweeney of Yellow Flight, 487th Squadron, who also identified the plane and saw no markings." Field Order No. 193 - Fighter Support
First Task Force: Solingen (abortive). U.S. VIIIth Fighter Command F.O. 193 VIIIth
Bomber Command F.O. 321 30th November 1943
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 6th June 2013, 13:32
Khorat Khorat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bacoor/P.I.
Posts: 476
Khorat is on a distinguished road
Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?

The only use of captured aircraft in combat (for me) is known by the Italian Airforce, there a P-38 was in action and so far I know the pilot also credited with the kill of a B-24, in the german airforce only KG 200 use captured aircraft - but in german markings B-24 and B-17´s - but for sure it could happend that somebody meet a captured Mustang or Thunderbolt on a test flight ?
khorat
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My library - you rate it! generalderpanzertruppen Books and Magazines 8 24th November 2007 02:36
German Pilots and captured Allied Aircraft query NUPPOL Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 7 31st July 2007 01:17
Special Luftwaffe Test Aircraft Junkers Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 25th March 2007 06:02
Luftwaffe fighter losses in Tunisia Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 47 14th March 2005 04:03
Eastern vs Western Front (was: La-7 vs ???) Christer Bergström Allied and Soviet Air Forces 66 1st March 2005 19:44


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2007, 12oclockhigh.net