The Eagles Over Europe Project

[ClinA-78]

The 2° pic shows the wreckage of a Bf 110 which crash-landed quite hardly near the Eastern border of the wood. I was able to pinpoint the crashsite and recover... a badly corroded blade left in situ. The initial burial place was nearby and the propellor (missing one blade) served as a memorial.

ClinA-78

[Larry Hickey]

ClinA-78,

Excellent post! Thanx. Several questions to clarify what I'm dealing with:

1) The photo that duplicates the site of the wartime Luftwaffe photo looking out across the landing ground (is this still an airfield?) absolutely confirms the location for the photo as Hort-Ste.-Marie (Belgium). Is Hort-Ste.-Marie the correct name of this place, or is it more accurately called Ste. Marie AF, at Chevigny, Belgium? What does the "Hort" mean, which doesn't translate in "Google Translator?" Did you take a similar photo from that location which can be used in the EoE Project to document this location?

2) The photo in your first post is credited as "(SC),? the meaning of which is not clear to me. Do you or anyone else know what source "SC" is? This photo appears in von Eimansberger's book (Schiffer Publishers in USA), P 54, but unfortunately was not in his master collection when I visited him. So I'm left with trying to find a photo from which I can get a high-resolution scan for the profile of Liensberger's L1+XB featured in the photo. The other photo in this post thread doesn't show the nose of the nearest a/c and this is crucial to getting a good close-up of that for purposes of the planned profile.

3) Regarding the crash of L1+EH, WNr3524 at the edge of the wood line (your second post), I have both of these photos in the EoE Collection, plus several others of it and the grave sites where this crew was buried. I also have photos of this a/c before it crashed. Is it possible to send me or post a google earth image or map showing the exact site of this crash? It would also be nice to have a photo of your souvenir prop blade from the crash site. I can send you a PM with my personal email address if this will help.

All in all, an excellent outcome, so far, for some of my questions relating to this post thread. However, I still need to locate print sources for these original photos from which to make high res scans.

[ClinA-78]

Hello Larry,

1) the strip (now grasslands) is situated 1 km SE of Ourt village (+/- 4 km E of Libramont). Hort is certainly OURT. Sainte-Marie-Chevigny is a larger (a little bit) village east of Ourt. The strip is thus between them. 'Ort' should be 'place'.
Sorry, no matching made.

2) As I don't know the author of the book, I cannot answer at the moment. I will track him.

3) the crash occured just along the Eastern border of the polygone wood.
PM sent.

Best regards

ClinA-78

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

In trying to pinpoint where this is, I've run into the problem of which St Aubin and which Thiberville. There are several St Aubins, but none are especially close to a Thiberville. To which airfield is this referring at which St Aubin? Perhaps the unit was also based at two different locations during this period, but I don't think that this is the case. Is Thiberville the name of an airfield location near or in one of the places named St Aubin? I./ZG2 was based there from 06.08.40 to 28.08.40, so it would have had to have been a location appropriate for Zerstörer operations during the Battle of Britain.

I'm sure that one of our French board readers will immediately know the answer to this.

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Someone sent me a message that this St Aubin must have been Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon, France, about 4 kms N of Thiberville. This area is about 25-30 kms SE of Le Havre, France, which would make sense for a Battle of Britain AF location for I./ZG2.

One thing that puzzles me, Thiberville is a actually a much larger village than Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon. So I'm wondering if the Bf110s of I./ZG2 used landing fields at both locations, or the main airfield was actually closer to Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon. It makes a difference in how we explain this. If this is correct it would be Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon Airfield 4 kms N of Thiberville, France. Or maybe the airfield was not really an airfield, but just open ground somewhere between these two villages where the Luftwaffe simply set up a temporary airfield.

Who knows where I./ZG2 actually operated from in this area during August, 1940?

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

For the EoE a/c profile project, I have two photos of what must be the a/c of Maj. Ernst Ott, the Gr Kdr of I./ZG2. He was appointed Gr Kdr on 27.05.40 and shot down and killed on 11.08.40 during the early part of the Battle of Britain, presumably in this a/c, which was coded 3M+AB and carried two victory tabs on the fin, neither of which are documented in records for I./ZG2.

The first photo shows a fairly developed airfield facility, probably either very late in the Western/French Campaign, in Germany before the beginning of the Battle of Britain, or at a French airfield during the first weeks of the Battle of Britain. Someone may well recognize this place, which should allow us to accurately date this location.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-L8f...-L8fTjf6-L.jpg

The second photo, which may be the same place or somewhere else, shows the same a/c in front of two hangars that are both painted with a forest of trees as camouflage. Never seen anything quite like this before this early in the war. This is distinctive enough that someone probably will recognize where this is.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-8M6...-8M6Dmb9-L.jpg

The time line when I think that these must have been taken show the unit based at the following locations, all in France:

1) Neufchateau: 25.05.40 - 22.06.40
2) Toussus le Noble: 22.06.40 - 21.07.40
3) Caen-Carpiquet: 21.07.40 - 06.08.40
4) St Aubin-Thiberville: 06.08.40 - 28.08.40 (probably can't be after 11.08.40, when Ott was shot down.

Of course, these could have been taken at some other airfields, during a stop-over, commander's conference, etc.

Since neither of the two victory tabs on the fin of this a/c are documented in unit records, does anyone have any information when and where these refer?

This a/c clearly has a red lightning bolt, possibly outlined in white, on the nose of the a/c. This lightning bolt has also been observed on an a/c (3M+AA) of the Geschwader Kde of ZG2, Maj. Vollbrecht. A yellow lightning bolt was known to have been used early on by the Gruppenstab of II./ZG26. Does anyone know if the Stab of I./ZG2 used a red lightning bolt as a Gruppenstab insignia? Likewise did the Geschwaderstab of ZG2 use this as an insignia during the spring or summer of 1940?

Does anyone know of any other photos of Ott's a/c, 3M+AB, especially the starboard side, or any of the successor's a/c thorough the end of Sept, 1940, when the unit was dissolved and the personnel and a/c adsorbed into the forming night fighter units.

Ott's immediate acting successor, the 2 Sta Kap, Hptm Hans-Peter Kübel, was shot down and killed in 3M+MK, the very next day. He was replaced by Hptm Dr. Christians (acting), and apparently later in August Christians was replaced by Hptm Eberthard Heinlein. Photos of aircraft of any of these pilots, or photos of the men themselves would be most welcome.

Who can help with any of these questions?

[edwest]

Hi Larry,


Are you familiar with this book which claims to be an A to Z list of Luftwaffe airfields?


http://www.amazon.de/Flugpl%C3%A4tze.../dp/3866190549




Usual Disclaimer,
Ed

[Larry deZeng]

Apologies for intruding here, but unless I am terribly mistaken the Jürgen Zapf series of books on Luftwaffe airfields only covers those in Germany, region-by-region-Thüringen, Mecklenburg und Vorpommern, Hamburg und Schleswig-Holstein, Sachsen, etc.

“Mit dieser ersten Veröffentlichung in Buchform legt der Verfasser erstmals eine Zusammenfassung zur Geschichte der Flugplätze der Luftwaffe in einer Region Deutschlands vor.”

In regard to the “Gesamtverzeichnis” volume:

Lexikon aller Flugplätze von A -Z: Mit dem 2000 erschienenen ersten von inzwischen sechs Bänden der Reihe Flugplätze der Luftwaffe 1934 - 1945 und was davon übrig blieb hatte der Autor erstmals eine zusammengefasste Geschichte der Flugplätze der Luftwaffe in einer Region vorgelegt. Bisherige Veröffentlichungen hatten in der Hauptsache die Chronik eines Luftwaffenverbandes oder das eigene persönliche Erleben in der Luftwaffe zum Inhalt. Wenige andere Veröffentlichungen bezogen sich auf die Geschichte eines einzelnen Flugplatzes der Luftwaffe oder aber auf die Geschichte der Verkehrsflughäfen. Auf vielfältigen Wunsch aus dem Kreis der Leser nach einer Übersicht aller Flugplätze der Luftwaffe entstand mit diesem Buch ein Lexikon aller Plätze auf dem Machtgebiet des Deutschen Reiches am Vorabend des Zweiten Weltkriegs. Aufgeführt werden alle die Plätze, die zwischen 1934 - 1945 zumindest kurzfristig von der Luftwaffe genutzt wurden oder zur Nutzung vorgesehen waren. Der Lexikoncharakter des Werkes bringt es dabei mit sich, dass die aufgeführten Plätze nur knapp beschrieben werden. Jeder Platz wird mit genauen Längen- und Breitengrad-Koordinaten, der Klassifizierung (z.B. als Feldflugplatz, Fliegerhorst o.ä.), einer Beschreibung seiner örtlichen Lage sowie einer kurzen Beschreibung seiner Geschichte gelistet. Ein Bildteil mit Dokumenten, verschiedenen Luftbildaufnahmen und einigen Aufnahmen von Plätzen einst und jetzt, teils in Farbe, beschließt den Band. Die ausführlichere Beschreibung einschließlich der genauen Angaben der Nutzung durch die Luftwaffe sowie Luftbilder und andere Aufnahmen bleibt den Bänden der Reihe vorbehalten. Autor: Jürgen Zapf

In other words, it’s a summarized directory and index to the 2,000 airfields in the Reich (Germany and Austria) that the author covers in detail in his 8 or 9 previously published volumes.The airfields of France, Belgium, Holland, Poland, etc., are not covered, according to the many advertising blurbs and reviews that I have read for the author’s books.

L.

[Pieter H]

Hi Larry,

on the profiles that I have of this a/c the lightning bolt is (light) blue, indeed outlined in white. I don't know where the blue comes from, and I understand your assumption that the lightning bolt could be in the Gruppe color. However, I have no proof of either of these hypothesis. So how can we be sure it is either blue or red?

Regards, Pieter

[Kutscha]

Is M. Holm's site wrong? http://www.ww2.dk/air/zerstorer/zg2.htm

It has I./ZG2 based at:

18.5.40 - 7.40 Neufchateau
7.40 - 9.40 Amiens-Glissy

In http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20France.pdf Neufchateau has I./ZG2 based there but Amiens-Glissy does not have I./ZG2 based there.

There is no mention of St Aubin-Thiberville that I could find.