Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 20th January 2007, 05:36
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: New York City
Posts: 406
Rob Romero is an unknown quantity at this point
Most One Sided Luftwaffe Victory over the 8th Air Force

On 29 Apr 44, of 751 ‘Mighty 8th’ bombers taking off for Berlin on Mission 279 (?), 669 were credited with a combat sortie (Could someone provide a compreshensive breakdown of losses –this is what I have:

-64 Bombers Fail to Return (38 B-17s & 26 B-24s)
–apparently 47 were lost to Lufwaffe fighters
–at least 9 were lost to Flak
–8 lost to ???

-355 Bombers Damaged (325 to Flak –apparently 30 to Fighters/Fighters & Flak)
? Category E Damage
? Category D Damage
? Category C Damage
? Category B Damage
? Category A Damage

-14 Fighters Fail to Return (10 P-51s, 3 P-38s, and 1 P-47)
? Category E Damage
? Category D Damage
? Category C Damage
? Category B Damage
? Category A Damage

78 U.S. Aircraft Failed to Return

28 Luftwaffe Aircraft are Lost
-Breakdown?

I quickly counted 128 Luftwaffe claims from my 25 Dec 04 version of Tony Woods Claims List including (201 and 202 from Heinz Bär and –surprise, surprise- No. 274 from my old acquaintance Günther Rall who had just returned from the Ostfront (The controversial Gottfried Dulias & I had breakfast with him the morning after a NASM syposium in 2002).
Though I’m fairly familiar with the major air battles with bombers –Ploesti, the two Schweinfurt battles, Berlin- I haven’t heard much about this raid. Why haven’t their been any in Depth Studies on this almost unknown but remarkeable action? Can anyone elaborate on this fight? What went so wrong for the Allies at this late stage in the war? What did the Jagdwaffe do right?

Thanks,

Rob Romero
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 20th January 2007, 09:25
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: New York City
Posts: 406
Rob Romero is an unknown quantity at this point
Revisions & Elaboration

A more careful count from my 25 Dec 04 version of Tony Woods Claims List indicates the Luftwaffe Claimed a total of 89 Aircraft Definitely Shot Down –a caution to historians to distinguish between Abschüsse (Outright Victory Claims), Endgültige Vernichtung (Final Destruction of Cripples), and HSS (Bomber Separated From Formation) claims. Since it seems that the Luftwaffe claimed 89 aircraft shot down and some 61 or more 8th Air Force Aircraft were shot down by aircraft, it seems they made a fairly reasonable estimate of their success (better than 2 out of every 3 claims or 68.5% can apparently be verified) for what must have been a hellacious fight. Moreover 10 of these 84 Claims were ASM ‘Pending Official Confirmation’ and thus cannot be counted as ‘Official Victories’ without subsequent documentation. Also very interseting is the fact that 2 of the 12 ASMs (Claims Pending Official Confirmation) belonged to none other than Günther Rall (his 274th) and Heinz Bär (his 202nd) -this single example -suggests to this writer at least- that the Luftwaffe’s Experten did not special consideration in assesing their claims.

84 Abschüsse (Outright Victory Claims) (10 of which were Pending Official Confirmation)
5 e. V. Claims (Final Destruction of HSS or Cripples)
89 Total Victory Claims
+
26 HSS Claims (Bomber Separated From Formation -i.e. Crippled)
115 Total Claims

75 Bombers Claimed Shot Down 65 Bombers Officially Credited (+10 Pending Official Confirmation) ~55 of 64 Bombers Shot Down by Fighters –at least 9 Bombers lost to Flak
(~55 of 75 Claimed Bombers Were Actually Shot Down ~73.3% Claim Accuracy)
US FIGHTERS LOST (The PRESUMPTION is made that all fighters were lost in combat to Luftwaffe Aircraft)

11 ‘Fighters’ Claimed Shot Down 10 ‘Fighters’ Officially Credited (+1 Pending Official Confirmation) 11 ‘Fighters’ Actually Failed to Return
NOTE ‘Fighters’ in this instance indicates single engined fighters (P-51 or P-47) Maj. Hans-Joachim Jabs also claimed 2 Spitfires in a perhaps unrelated action.
(11 of 11 Claimed Single Engined Fighters Were Actually Shot Down 100% Claim Accuracy)

7 P-38s Claimed Shot Down 6 P-38s Officially Credited (+1 P-38 Pending Official Confirmation) 3 P-51 Actually Failed to Return -1 other pilot Claimed Unknown Type)
(3 of 2 Claimed P-38s Were Actually Shot Down 150% Claim Accuracy)


52 B-17s Claimed Shot Down 46 B-17 Officially Credited (+6 Pending Official Confirmation) 38 B-17s Actually Failed to Return –Some were lost to Flak
29.04.44 Fw. Franz Busch: 1 5./JG 3 B-17 £ GC-7: 7.500 m. [N.E. Helmstedt] 10.52 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 211
29.04.44 Uffz. Kappler: 1 3./JG 1 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/GB, E.S.E. Braunschweig: 7.000 m. 10.57 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 37
29.04.44 Ofw. Brodbeck: 3 6./JG 1 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/GB-HB: 7.500 m. [Braunschweig] 10.58 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 81
29.04.44 Oblt. Georg-Peter Eder: 41 6./JG 1 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/GB-7: 7.500 m. [E. Braunschweig] 10.58 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 82
29.04.44 Ofw. Rudolf Hübl: 18 2./JG 1 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/GC-7: 5.000 m. [N.E. Königslutter] 11.01 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. -
29.04.44 Maj. Gerhard Michalski 3./JGr. z.b.V B-17 £ Schandelah: 7.000 m. [E. Brauschweig] 11.03 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 1
29.04.44 Ltn. Hans Schrangl: 5 Stab I./JG 11 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/FU N. Hannover: 7.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 24
29.04.44 Fw. Otto Florian: 9 4./JG 3 B-17 £ N. Helmstedt: 7.500 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 273
29.04.44 Ltn. Hans Weik: 27 10./JG 3 B-17 £ HB-1 Helmstedt: 7.500 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 16
29.04.44 Ltn. Karl Paashaus: 21 5./JG 53 B-17 £ 10 km. E. Braunschweig: 7.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 77
29.04.44 Fhj.Fw. Walter Becker: 1 6./JG 3 B-17 £ Raum Helmstedt: 7.500 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 120
29.04.44 Hptm. Fritz Keller: 8 Stab II./JG 27 B-17 £ N.E. Helmstedt: 6.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 39
29.04.44 Ltn. Dieter Zink: 7 Stab/JG 3 B-17 £ Helmstedt: 7.800 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 185
29.04.44 Ltn. Oscar Zimmermann: 17 6./JG 3 B-17 £ N.W. Magdeburg: 7.500 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 121
29.04.44 Fw. Walter Köhne: 28 3./JG 1 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/GB E.S.E. Braunschweig: 6.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 36
29.04.44 Uffz. Gerhard Vivroux: 5 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ GB-9: 7.000 m. [Marienthal E. Königslutter] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 23
29.04.44 Fw. Kurt Röhrich: 9 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ GC-5: 7.000 m. [Calvörde N. Haldensleben] 11.06 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 24
29.04.44 Ltn. Werner Gerth: 8 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ GC-2: 7.000 m. [Miesterhorst] 11.07 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 25
29.04.44 Uffz. Oskar Bösch: 2 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ 5 km. N.W. Helmstedt: 7.000 m. 11.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 27
29.04.44 Uffz. Willi Maximowitz: 4 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ Hehlingen: 7.000 m. 11.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 26
29.04.44 Ltn. Richard Franz: n.l. Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ N. Oebisfelde: 7.000 m. 11.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 28
29.04.44 Ltn. Siegfried Müller: 6 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ GC-7: 7.000 m. [Haldensleben] 11.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 30
29.04.44 Oblt. Günther Seeger: 47 4./JG 53 B-17 £ HB-2: 7.000 m. [S.W. Königslutter] 11.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 139
29.04.44 Oblt. Ottmar Zehart: 3 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ GC-12: 7.000 m. [Miesterhorst] 11.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 29
29.04.44 Ltn. Richard Franz: 4 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ - 11.10 Reference: JG 3 List f. 356
29.04.44 Oblt. Walter Bohatsch: e.V. 3./JG 3 B-17 e.V. £ HE-8: 3.000 m. [N. Zerbst] 11.20 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 275
29.04.44 Ofw. Ernst Haase: 7 1./JG 302 B-17 £ Braunschweig-Wolfsburg tiefflug 100 m. Reference: WR JG 301-302
29.04.44 Ofw. Artur Groß: 6 2./JG 302 B-17 £ - - Reference: WR JG 301-302
29.04.44 Oblt. Heinz Seidel: 5 3./JG 302 B-17 £ - - Reference: WR JG 301-302
29.04.44 Uffz. Peine: n.b. 2./JG 1 B-17 e.V. £ - - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Fw. Otto Florian: 10 4./JG 3 B-17 £ HE-4: 7.500 m. [Wiesenburg] 11.20 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 275
29.04.44 Ltn. Hans Weik: 28 10./JG 3 B-17 £ HD-3 Burg: 7.000 m. 11.20 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 18
29.04.44 Fw. Hans-Ulrich Jüng: 4 10./JG 3 B-17 £ HD-3 Burg: 7.500 m. 11.20 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 17
29.04.44 Uffz. Walter Loos: 9 11./JG 3 B-17 £ HD-3 Burg: 7.500 m. 11.20 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 19
29.04.44 Fw. Werner Dienst: 1 2./JG 302 B-17 £ Wennbostel N. Hannover: 8.500 m. 11.30 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 1
29.04.44 Gefr. illegible Ind.St. Erla B-17 £ Locations illegible 12.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 4
29.04.44 Uffz. Bruno Ostrowirtzki: 6 2./JG 3 B-17 £ HE-9: 3.000 m. [S.E. Reuden] 12.15 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 95
29.04.44 Uffz. Schult [sic] L.Beo.St. B-17 £ Locations illegible 12.39 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 2
29.04.44 Oblt. Rüdiger von Kirchmayr: 14 5./JG 1 B-17 £ N.E. Fallersleben: 5.500 m. 13.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 85
29.04.44 Oblt. Rüdiger von Kirchmayr: 15 5./JG 1 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/GB: 5.500 m. [area Wolfsburg] 13.12 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 86
29.04.44 Oblt. Engau: 1 2./JG 11 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/FT: 5.800 m. [Nienburg] 13.27 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 99
29.04.44 Hptm. Walter Barte Stab III./NJG 3 B-17 £ FD-47: 4.300 m. [Jävenitz S.W. Stendal] 13.28 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 13
29.04.44 Oblt. Waldemar Radener: - 7./JG 26 B-17 £ 5 km. S.E. Roubaix: no height 13.35 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 93
29.04.44 Ofw. Gerhard Vogt: 26 5./JG 26 B-17 £ N.E. St. Omer: 1.000 m. 14.30 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 119
29.04.44 Fw. Otto Erhardt: 8 10./JG 3 B-17 £ - - Reference: JG 3 List f. 356
29.04.44 Fw. Peter Crump: e.V. 7./JG 26 B-17 e.V. £ 5 km. S. Reims 13.30 Reference: DLC JG 26
29.04.44 Ltn. Karlheinz Kapp: 10 4./JG 27 B-17 £ GB: 6.500 m. [N.E. Braunschweig] 10.55 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Fw. Rudolf Philipp: 6 5./JG 27 B-17 £ N.E. Braunschweig: 6.500 m. 11.00 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Fw. Johannes Hoyer: 3 6./JG 3 B-17 £ u. Magdeburg: 7.500 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Kurt Sossdorf: 1 5./JG 3 B-17 £ GC-4: 8.400 m. [Ratzlingen E. Wolfsburg] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ltn. Werner Gerth: 7 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ FB-FC: 7.000 m. [area N.E. Gifhorn] 11.07 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Fw. Alexander: 1 4./JG 53 B-17 £ Bremen: 6.000 m. 13.40 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM

23 B-24s Claimed Shot Down 19 B-24 Officially Credited (+4 Pending Official Confirmation) 26 B-17s Actually Failed to Return –Some were lost to Flak
29.04.44 Uffz. Walbeck: 2 3./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FT N.W.Hannover: 7.000 m. 11.03 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 32
29.04.44 Oblt. Hans-Heinrich Koenig: 22 3./JG 11 B-24 £ FU: N. Hannover: 7.000 m. 11.03 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 31
29.04.44 Uffz. Schumacher: 2 2./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU W. Celle: 6.000 m. 11.04 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 8
29.04.44 Uffz. Folger: 4 1./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU: 7.000 m. [N. Hannover] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 26
29.04.44 Uffz. Loewe: 1 1./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU: 7.000 m. [N. Hannover] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 21
29.04.44 Fhj.Ofw. Schunke: 1 Stab I./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S / FU Raum Eize: 7.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 20
29.04.44 Oblt. Hans-Heinrich Koenig: 23 3./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU nordl.Hannover: 7.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 29
29.04.44 Ofw. Heinz Stöwer: 14 3./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU nordl. Hannover: 7.000 m. 11.07 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 30
29.04.44 Fw. Birkigt: 3 3./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FA nordl. Hannover: 7.000 m. 11.20 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 33
29.04.44 Fw. Janke: 2 3./JG 3 B-24 £ GC: 6.500 m. [area Haldensleben] 13.03 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 18
29.04.44 Fw. Hans-Georg Karl: 2 1./JG 1 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FS: 5.000 m. [area Sulingen] 13.13 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 27
29.04.44 Ltn. Windbichler: 3 2./JG 1 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU: 5.000 m. [S.E. Verden] 13.15 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 28
29.04.44 Gefr. Friedrich: 1 Stab/JG 11 B-24 £ ES-FS: 5.000 m. [Bassum-Sulingen] 13.25 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 7
29.04.44 Hptm. Gerhard Sommer: 19 4./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FS-FR Raum Diepholz: 6.000 m. 13.30 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 69
29.04.44 Fw. Wilhelm Fest: 10 5./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FS-6 to GS W. Minden: 6.500 m. 13.40 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 29
29.04.44 Uffz. Tempel: 1 4./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FS-FR: 6.000 m. [area Diepholz] 13.30-45 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 70
29.04.44 Uffz. Marx: 1 4./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FS-FR: 6.000 m. [area Diepholz] 13.30-45 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 71
29.04.44 Ofw. Hamacher: e.V. 2./JG 11 B-24 e.V. £ 05 Ost S/FR-3: 2.500 m. [W. Barnstorf] 13.25 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 38
29.04.44 Fw. Jansen: e.V. 5./JG 1 B-24 e.V. £ - - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Maj. Heinz Bär: 202 Stab II./JG 1 B-24 £ GB: 6.500 m. [area N.E. Braunschweig] 10.59 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: ASM
29.04.44 Obfhr. Hodes: 1 2./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU Raum Celle: 7.000 m. 11.07 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: ASM
29.04.44 Fhj.Ofw. Eberhard Kröker: 7 6./JG 302 B-24 £ Leipkau: 7.000 m. 11.18 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: ASM
29.04.44 Oblt. Hans-Heinrich Koenig: 25 3./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FT Nienburg: 6.000 m. 13.56 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM

14 US Fighter Lost (10 P-51s, 3 P-38s, and 1 P-47)

4 P-47s Claimed Shot Down & Officially Credited -1 P-47 Actually Failed to Return (25%)
29.04.44 Maj. Heinz Bär: 201 Stab II./JG 1 P-47 £ 05 Ost S/HB N.W.Halberstadt 10.56 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 68
29.04.44 Oblt. Georg-Peter Eder: 42 6./JG 1 P-47 £ 05 Ost S/HB-1 S.E.Braunschweig: 300 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 86
29.04.44 Oblt. Rüdiger von Kirchmayr: 13 5./JG 1 P-47 £ 05 Ost S/GB-HB ostl. Braunschweig 11.05 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Obgefr. Triebel: n.b. 6./JG 1 P-47 £ 05 Ost S/GB Raum Braunschweig - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1207

29.04.44 Fhj.Ofw. Neuberger: 2 Stab II./JG 11 P-38 £ 05 Ost S/FA nordl. Hannover: 8.700 m. 11.30 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 22
29.04.44 Maj. Günther Rall: 274 Stab II./JG 11 P-38 £ 05 Ost S/FU nordl. Hannover: 8.000 m. 11.15 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: ASM

7 P-51 Claimed Shot Down 6 P-51 Officially Credited (+1 Pending Official Confirmation) 10 P-51s Actually Fail to Return -Perhaps some P-51s were Identified as P-47 from Rear)
29.04.44 Oblt. Heinz Knoke: 25 5./JG 11 P-51 £ Fl.Pl. Braunschweig-Waggum: 40 m. 11.50 - 12.00 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 28
29.04.44 Uffz. Drühe: 2 * 5./JG 11 P-51 £ - - Reference: JG 11 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Ltn. Lüchau: 17 * 6./JG 11 P-51 £ - - Reference: JG 11 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Ltn. Georg Füreder: 17 * 5./JG 11 P-51 £ - - Reference: JG 11 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Fw. Bubel: 1 4./JG 11 P-51 £ 05 Ost S/FS-FR Diepholz area: 6.000 m. - Reference: JG 11 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Oblt. Heinz Seidel: 4 3./JG 302 P-51 £ - - Reference: WR JG 301-302
29.04.44 Obfhr. Grill: 1 Stab II./JG 11 P-51 £ HA-HB/JA-JB: 5.000 m. [Hildesheim] 11.20 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM

JaFü II. Jagdkorps/Lfl. 3:
29.04.44 Ofw. Karl Laube: n.l. 9./JG 26 Unident: £ Locations illegible 18.46 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 98
89 TOTAL Victory Claims 77 Official Victories (12 Victories Pending Official Verification)

JaFüI. Jagdkorps/Lfl. Reich:
29.04.44 Ltn. Erwin Baumgarten: 3 5./JG 27 B-17 HSS £ N.E. Braunschweig: 6.500 m. 10.55 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ofw. Rudolf Piffer: 26 2./JG 1 B-17 HSS £ 05 OstS/HC: 5.000 m. [N. Oschersleben] 10.58 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Fritz Rathofer: 3 3./JG 1 B-17 HSS £ HB-HC: 7.000 m. [E. Schöppenstedt] 10.58 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Seeler: 4 5./JG 302 B-17 HSS £ Helmstedt: 7.000 m. 11.04 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ofw. Dahlhöfer: 1 2./JG 11 B-24 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FU Raum Celle: 7.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Fw. Grube: 1 12./JG 3 B-17 HSS £ Helmstedt: 7.500 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ltn. Hans Iffland: 11 10./JG 3 B-17 HSS £ HC-4: 7.500 m. [Barneburg] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Max Reichenberger: 3 5./JG 3 B-17 HSS £ 15 Ost S / GC-4: 8.400 m. [Oebisfelde] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Fw. Hans Schäfer: 13 10./JG 3 B-17 HSS £ GC-14: no height [E. Oebisfelde] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Helmut Keune: 1 Sturmst. 1 B-17 HSS £ FB-FC: 7.000 m. [Warenholz-Klötze] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Oskar Bösch: 1 Sturmst. 1 B-17 HSS £ FB-FC: 7.000 m. [area N.E. Gifhorn] 11.07 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Helmut Wichmann: 1 12./JG 3 B-24 HSS £ FB Gardelegen: 5.000 m. 13.20 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Hptm. Wilhelm Moritz: 35 Stab IV./JG 3 B-24 HSS £ FC-EC: 5.000 m. [area Salzwedel-Klötz] 13.20 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ltn. Hans Rachner: 7 12./JG 3 B-24 HSS £ FB: 5.000 m. [area N.E. Gifhorn] 13.20 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Oskar Fischer: 2 12./JG 3 B-17 HSS £ FB Gardelegen: 5.000 m. 13.20 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Obfhr. Erhard Nolting: 5 Stab IV./JG 3 B-24 HSS £ FC-EC: 5.000 m. [area Salzwedel-Klötz] 13.20 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ltn. Hans Schrangl: 24 Stab I./JG 11 B-17 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FT-FS: 6.000 m. [S.W. Verden] 13.25 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Gefr. Schwesinger: 7 2./JG 11 B-17 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FT: 5.800 m. [Nienburg] 13.25 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Oblt. Hans-Heinrich Koenig: 24 3./JG 11 B-24 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FS-FT Raum Nienburg: 5.000 m. 13.25 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ofw. Jantzen: 1 2./JG 11 B-24 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FT: 5.800 m. [area Nienburg] 13.25 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. -
29.04.44 Ofw. Gahr: 1 Stab/JG 11 B-17 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FT-FS S.W.Verden: 7.000 m. 13.26 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Pfeffer: 3 Stab/JG 11 B-24 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FT-FS S.W.Verden: 6.000 m. 13.26 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Walter Dobrath: 1 1./JG 1 B-24 HSS £ 05 Ost S/ER Raum Vechta: 5.500 m. 13.35 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Willi Unger: 8 11./JG 3 B-17 HSS £ - - Reference: JG 3 List f. 356
29.04.44 Fw. Wolfgang Kosse: 22 Sturmst. 1 B-17 HSS £ - 11.10 Reference: JG 3 List f. 356
29.04.44 Fw. Wolfgang Kosse: 23 Sturmst. 1 B-17 HSS £ - 11.15 Reference: JG 3 List f. 356
26 HSS (Bombers Crippled) (Some of these were later shot down inluding 5 ‘Final Destruction’ of Cripples by Fighters -30 Bombers returned home Damaged).
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 20th January 2007, 10:26
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: New York City
Posts: 406
Rob Romero is an unknown quantity at this point
Ooops!!! More Revisions

A careful evaluation indicates the Luftwaffe Claimed a total of 89 Aircraft Definitely Shot Down –a caution to historians to distinguish between Abschüsse (Outright Victory Claims), Endgültige Vernichtung (Final Destruction of Cripples), and HSS (Bomber Separated From Formation) claims. Since it seems that as the Luftwaffe claimed 89 aircraft shot down and 61-69 USAAF Aircraft were shot down by aircraft, it seems they made a fairly reasonable estimate of their success (68.5-77.5% can apparently be verified) in what must have been a hellacious fight. Moreover 10 of these 89 Claims were ASM ‘Pending Official Confirmation’ and thus cannot be counted as ‘Official Victories’ without subsequent documentation. Also very interseting is the fact that 2 of the 12 ASMs (Claims Pending Official Confirmation) belonged to none other than Günther Rall (his 274th) and Heinz Bär (his 202nd) -this single example -suggests to this writer at least- that the Luftwaffe’s Experten did not receive special consideration in assesing their claims.

84 Abschüsse (Outright Victory Claims) (12 of which were Pending Official Confirmation)
5 Endgültige Vernichtung Claims (Final Destruction of HSS or Cripples)
89 Total Victory Claims
+
26 HSS Claims (Bomber Separated From Formation -i.e. Crippled)
115 Total Claims

75 Bombers Claimed Shot Down 65 Bombers Officially Credited (+10 Pending Official Confirmation) ~55 of 64 Bombers Shot Down by Fighters –at least 9 Bombers lost to Flak
(~55 of 75 Claimed Bombers Were Actually Shot Down ~73.3% Claim Accuracy)

US FIGHTERS LOST (The PRESUMPTION is made that all fighters were lost in combat to Luftwaffe Aircraft)
11 ‘Fighters’ Claimed Shot Down 10 ‘Fighters’ Officially Credited (+1 Pending Official Confirmation) 11 ‘Fighters’ Actually Failed to Return
NOTE ‘Fighters’ in this instance indicates single engined fighters (P-51 or P-47) Maj. Hans-Joachim Jabs (50) also claimed 2 Spitfires in a perhaps unrelated action.
(11 of 11 Claimed Single Engined Fighters Were Actually Shot Down 100% Claim Accuracy)

2 P-38s Claimed Shot Down 1 P-38 Officially Credited (+1 P-38 Pending Official Confirmation) 3 P-38 Actually Failed to Return -NOTE 1 Luft pilot Claimed Unknown Type)
(3 of 2 Claimed P-38s Were Actually Shot Down 150% Claim Accuracy)

52 B-17s Claimed Shot Down 46 B-17 Officially Credited (+6 Pending Official Confirmation) 38 B-17s Actually Failed to Return –Some were lost to Flak
29.04.44 Fw. Franz Busch: 1 5./JG 3 B-17 £ GC-7: 7.500 m. [N.E. Helmstedt] 10.52 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 211
29.04.44 Uffz. Kappler: 1 3./JG 1 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/GB, E.S.E. Braunschweig: 7.000 m. 10.57 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 37
29.04.44 Ofw. Brodbeck: 3 6./JG 1 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/GB-HB: 7.500 m. [Braunschweig] 10.58 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 81
29.04.44 Oblt. Georg-Peter Eder: 41 6./JG 1 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/GB-7: 7.500 m. [E. Braunschweig] 10.58 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 82
29.04.44 Ofw. Rudolf Hübl: 18 2./JG 1 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/GC-7: 5.000 m. [N.E. Königslutter] 11.01 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. -
29.04.44 Maj. Gerhard Michalski 3./JGr. z.b.V B-17 £ Schandelah: 7.000 m. [E. Brauschweig] 11.03 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 1
29.04.44 Ltn. Hans Schrangl: 5 Stab I./JG 11 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/FU N. Hannover: 7.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 24
29.04.44 Fw. Otto Florian: 9 4./JG 3 B-17 £ N. Helmstedt: 7.500 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 273
29.04.44 Ltn. Hans Weik: 27 10./JG 3 B-17 £ HB-1 Helmstedt: 7.500 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 16
29.04.44 Ltn. Karl Paashaus: 21 5./JG 53 B-17 £ 10 km. E. Braunschweig: 7.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 77
29.04.44 Fhj.Fw. Walter Becker: 1 6./JG 3 B-17 £ Raum Helmstedt: 7.500 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 120
29.04.44 Hptm. Fritz Keller: 8 Stab II./JG 27 B-17 £ N.E. Helmstedt: 6.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 39
29.04.44 Ltn. Dieter Zink: 7 Stab/JG 3 B-17 £ Helmstedt: 7.800 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 185
29.04.44 Ltn. Oscar Zimmermann: 17 6./JG 3 B-17 £ N.W. Magdeburg: 7.500 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 121
29.04.44 Fw. Walter Köhne: 28 3./JG 1 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/GB E.S.E. Braunschweig: 6.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 36
29.04.44 Uffz. Gerhard Vivroux: 5 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ GB-9: 7.000 m. [Marienthal E. Königslutter] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 23
29.04.44 Fw. Kurt Röhrich: 9 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ GC-5: 7.000 m. [Calvörde N. Haldensleben] 11.06 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 24
29.04.44 Ltn. Werner Gerth: 8 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ GC-2: 7.000 m. [Miesterhorst] 11.07 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 25
29.04.44 Uffz. Oskar Bösch: 2 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ 5 km. N.W. Helmstedt: 7.000 m. 11.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 27
29.04.44 Uffz. Willi Maximowitz: 4 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ Hehlingen: 7.000 m. 11.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 26
29.04.44 Ltn. Richard Franz: n.l. Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ N. Oebisfelde: 7.000 m. 11.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 28
29.04.44 Ltn. Siegfried Müller: 6 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ GC-7: 7.000 m. [Haldensleben] 11.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 30
29.04.44 Oblt. Günther Seeger: 47 4./JG 53 B-17 £ HB-2: 7.000 m. [S.W. Königslutter] 11.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 139
29.04.44 Oblt. Ottmar Zehart: 3 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ GC-12: 7.000 m. [Miesterhorst] 11.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 29
29.04.44 Ltn. Richard Franz: 4 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ - 11.10 Reference: JG 3 List f. 356
29.04.44 Oblt. Walter Bohatsch: e.V. 3./JG 3 B-17 e.V. £ HE-8: 3.000 m. [N. Zerbst] 11.20 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 275
29.04.44 Ofw. Ernst Haase: 7 1./JG 302 B-17 £ Braunschweig-Wolfsburg tiefflug 100 m. Reference: WR JG 301-302
29.04.44 Ofw. Artur Groß: 6 2./JG 302 B-17 £ - - Reference: WR JG 301-302
29.04.44 Oblt. Heinz Seidel: 5 3./JG 302 B-17 £ - - Reference: WR JG 301-302
29.04.44 Uffz. Peine: n.b. 2./JG 1 B-17 e.V. £ - - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Fw. Otto Florian: 10 4./JG 3 B-17 £ HE-4: 7.500 m. [Wiesenburg] 11.20 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 275
29.04.44 Ltn. Hans Weik: 28 10./JG 3 B-17 £ HD-3 Burg: 7.000 m. 11.20 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 18
29.04.44 Fw. Hans-Ulrich Jüng: 4 10./JG 3 B-17 £ HD-3 Burg: 7.500 m. 11.20 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 17
29.04.44 Uffz. Walter Loos: 9 11./JG 3 B-17 £ HD-3 Burg: 7.500 m. 11.20 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 19
29.04.44 Fw. Werner Dienst: 1 2./JG 302 B-17 £ Wennbostel N. Hannover: 8.500 m. 11.30 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 1
29.04.44 Gefr. illegible Ind.St. Erla B-17 £ Locations illegible 12.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 4
29.04.44 Uffz. Bruno Ostrowirtzki: 6 2./JG 3 B-17 £ HE-9: 3.000 m. [S.E. Reuden] 12.15 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 95
29.04.44 Uffz. Schult [sic] L.Beo.St. B-17 £ Locations illegible 12.39 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 2
29.04.44 Oblt. Rüdiger von Kirchmayr: 14 5./JG 1 B-17 £ N.E. Fallersleben: 5.500 m. 13.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 85
29.04.44 Oblt. Rüdiger von Kirchmayr: 15 5./JG 1 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/GB: 5.500 m. [area Wolfsburg] 13.12 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 86
29.04.44 Oblt. Engau: 1 2./JG 11 B-17 £ 05 Ost S/FT: 5.800 m. [Nienburg] 13.27 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 99
29.04.44 Hptm. Walter Barte Stab III./NJG 3 B-17 £ FD-47: 4.300 m. [Jävenitz S.W. Stendal] 13.28 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 13
29.04.44 Oblt. Waldemar Radener: - 7./JG 26 B-17 £ 5 km. S.E. Roubaix: no height 13.35 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 93
29.04.44 Ofw. Gerhard Vogt: 26 5./JG 26 B-17 £ N.E. St. Omer: 1.000 m. 14.30 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 119
29.04.44 Fw. Otto Erhardt: 8 10./JG 3 B-17 £ - - Reference: JG 3 List f. 356
29.04.44 Fw. Peter Crump: e.V. 7./JG 26 B-17 e.V. £ 5 km. S. Reims 13.30 Reference: DLC JG 26
29.04.44 Ltn. Karlheinz Kapp: 10 4./JG 27 B-17 £ GB: 6.500 m. [N.E. Braunschweig] 10.55 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Fw. Rudolf Philipp: 6 5./JG 27 B-17 £ N.E. Braunschweig: 6.500 m. 11.00 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Fw. Johannes Hoyer: 3 6./JG 3 B-17 £ u. Magdeburg: 7.500 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Kurt Sossdorf: 1 5./JG 3 B-17 £ GC-4: 8.400 m. [Ratzlingen E. Wolfsburg] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ltn. Werner Gerth: 7 Sturmst. 1 B-17 £ FB-FC: 7.000 m. [area N.E. Gifhorn] 11.07 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Fw. Alexander: 1 4./JG 53 B-17 £ Bremen: 6.000 m. 13.40 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM

23 B-24s Claimed Shot Down 19 B-24s Officially Credited (+4 Pending Official Confirmation) 26 B-24s Actually Failed to Return –Some were lost to Flak
29.04.44 Uffz. Walbeck: 2 3./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FT N.W.Hannover: 7.000 m. 11.03 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 32
29.04.44 Oblt. Hans-Heinrich Koenig: 22 3./JG 11 B-24 £ FU: N. Hannover: 7.000 m. 11.03 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 31
29.04.44 Uffz. Schumacher: 2 2./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU W. Celle: 6.000 m. 11.04 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 8
29.04.44 Uffz. Folger: 4 1./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU: 7.000 m. [N. Hannover] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 26
29.04.44 Uffz. Loewe: 1 1./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU: 7.000 m. [N. Hannover] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 21
29.04.44 Fhj.Ofw. Schunke: 1 Stab I./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S / FU Raum Eize: 7.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 20
29.04.44 Oblt. Hans-Heinrich Koenig: 23 3./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU nordl.Hannover: 7.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 29
29.04.44 Ofw. Heinz Stöwer: 14 3./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU nordl. Hannover: 7.000 m. 11.07 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 30
29.04.44 Fw. Birkigt: 3 3./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FA nordl. Hannover: 7.000 m. 11.20 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 33
29.04.44 Fw. Janke: 2 3./JG 3 B-24 £ GC: 6.500 m. [area Haldensleben] 13.03 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 18
29.04.44 Fw. Hans-Georg Karl: 2 1./JG 1 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FS: 5.000 m. [area Sulingen] 13.13 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 27
29.04.44 Ltn. Windbichler: 3 2./JG 1 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU: 5.000 m. [S.E. Verden] 13.15 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 28
29.04.44 Gefr. Friedrich: 1 Stab/JG 11 B-24 £ ES-FS: 5.000 m. [Bassum-Sulingen] 13.25 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 7
29.04.44 Hptm. Gerhard Sommer: 19 4./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FS-FR Raum Diepholz: 6.000 m. 13.30 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 69
29.04.44 Fw. Wilhelm Fest: 10 5./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FS-6 to GS W. Minden: 6.500 m. 13.40 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 29
29.04.44 Uffz. Tempel: 1 4./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FS-FR: 6.000 m. [area Diepholz] 13.30-45 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 70
29.04.44 Uffz. Marx: 1 4./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FS-FR: 6.000 m. [area Diepholz] 13.30-45 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 71
29.04.44 Ofw. Hamacher: e.V. 2./JG 11 B-24 e.V. £ 05 Ost S/FR-3: 2.500 m. [W. Barnstorf] 13.25 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 38
29.04.44 Fw. Jansen: e.V. 5./JG 1 B-24 e.V. £ - - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Maj. Heinz Bär: 202 Stab II./JG 1 B-24 £ GB: 6.500 m. [area N.E. Braunschweig] 10.59 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: ASM
29.04.44 Obfhr. Hodes: 1 2./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FU Raum Celle: 7.000 m. 11.07 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: ASM
29.04.44 Fhj.Ofw. Eberhard Kröker: 7 6./JG 302 B-24 £ Leipkau: 7.000 m. 11.18 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: ASM
29.04.44 Oblt. Hans-Heinrich Koenig: 25 3./JG 11 B-24 £ 05 Ost S/FT Nienburg: 6.000 m. 13.56 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM


14 US Fighters Lost (10 P-51s, 3 P-38s, and 1 P-47)

4 P-47s Claimed Shot Down & Officially Credited -1 P-47 Actually Failed to Return (25%)
29.04.44 Maj. Heinz Bär: 201 Stab II./JG 1 P-47 £ 05 Ost S/HB N.W.Halberstadt 10.56 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 68
29.04.44 Oblt. Georg-Peter Eder: 42 6./JG 1 P-47 £ 05 Ost S/HB-1 S.E.Braunschweig: 300 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 86
29.04.44 Oblt. Rüdiger von Kirchmayr: 13 5./JG 1 P-47 £ 05 Ost S/GB-HB ostl. Braunschweig 11.05 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Obgefr. Triebel: n.b. 6./JG 1 P-47 £ 05 Ost S/GB Raum Braunschweig - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1207

2 P-38s Claimed Shot Down 1 P-38 Officially Credited (+1 P-38 Pending Official Confirmation) 3 P-38 Actually Failed to Return -NOTE 1 Luft pilot Claimed Unknown Type)
29.04.44 Fhj.Ofw. Neuberger: 2 Stab II./JG 11 P-38 £ 05 Ost S/FA nordl. Hannover: 8.700 m. 11.30 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 22
29.04.44 Maj. Günther Rall: 274 Stab II./JG 11 P-38 £ 05 Ost S/FU nordl. Hannover: 8.000 m. 11.15 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: ASM

7 P-51 Claimed Shot Down 6 P-51 Officially Credited (+1 Pending Official Confirmation) 10 P-51s Actually Fail to Return -Perhaps some P-51s were Identified as P-47s from Rear)
29.04.44 Oblt. Heinz Knoke: 25 5./JG 11 P-51 £ Fl.Pl. Braunschweig-Waggum: 40 m. 11.50 - 12.00 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 28
29.04.44 Uffz. Drühe: 2 * 5./JG 11 P-51 £ - - Reference: JG 11 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Ltn. Lüchau: 17 * 6./JG 11 P-51 £ - - Reference: JG 11 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Ltn. Georg Füreder: 17 * 5./JG 11 P-51 £ - - Reference: JG 11 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Fw. Bubel: 1 4./JG 11 P-51 £ 05 Ost S/FS-FR Diepholz area: 6.000 m. - Reference: JG 11 List f. 1207
29.04.44 Oblt. Heinz Seidel: 4 3./JG 302 P-51 £ - - Reference: WR JG 301-302
29.04.44 Obfhr. Grill: 1 Stab II./JG 11 P-51 £ HA-HB/JA-JB: 5.000 m. [Hildesheim] 11.20 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM

JaFü II. Jagdkorps/Lfl. 3:
29.04.44 Ofw. Karl Laube: n.l. 9./JG 26 Unident: £ Locations illegible 18.46 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 98
89 TOTAL Victory Claims 77 Official Victories (12 Victories Pending Official Verification)

JaFüI. Jagdkorps/Lfl. Reich:
29.04.44 Ltn. Erwin Baumgarten: 3 5./JG 27 B-17 HSS £ N.E. Braunschweig: 6.500 m. 10.55 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ofw. Rudolf Piffer: 26 2./JG 1 B-17 HSS £ 05 OstS/HC: 5.000 m. [N. Oschersleben] 10.58 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Fritz Rathofer: 3 3./JG 1 B-17 HSS £ HB-HC: 7.000 m. [E. Schöppenstedt] 10.58 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Seeler: 4 5./JG 302 B-17 HSS £ Helmstedt: 7.000 m. 11.04 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ofw. Dahlhöfer: 1 2./JG 11 B-24 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FU Raum Celle: 7.000 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Fw. Grube: 1 12./JG 3 B-17 HSS £ Helmstedt: 7.500 m. 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ltn. Hans Iffland: 11 10./JG 3 B-17 HSS £ HC-4: 7.500 m. [Barneburg] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Max Reichenberger: 3 5./JG 3 B-17 HSS £ 15 Ost S / GC-4: 8.400 m. [Oebisfelde] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Fw. Hans Schäfer: 13 10./JG 3 B-17 HSS £ GC-14: no height [E. Oebisfelde] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Helmut Keune: 1 Sturmst. 1 B-17 HSS £ FB-FC: 7.000 m. [Warenholz-Klötze] 11.05 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Oskar Bösch: 1 Sturmst. 1 B-17 HSS £ FB-FC: 7.000 m. [area N.E. Gifhorn] 11.07 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Fw. Wolfgang Kosse: 22 Sturmst. 1 B-17 HSS £ - 11.10 Reference: JG 3 List f. 356
29.04.44 Fw. Wolfgang Kosse: 23 Sturmst. 1 B-17 HSS £ - 11.15 Reference: JG 3 List f. 356
29.04.44 Uffz. Helmut Wichmann: 1 12./JG 3 B-24 HSS £ FB Gardelegen: 5.000 m. 13.20 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Hptm. Wilhelm Moritz: 35 Stab IV./JG 3 B-24 HSS £ FC-EC: 5.000 m. [area Salzwedel-Klötz] 13.20 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ltn. Hans Rachner: 7 12./JG 3 B-24 HSS £ FB: 5.000 m. [area N.E. Gifhorn] 13.20 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Oskar Fischer: 2 12./JG 3 B-17 HSS £ FB Gardelegen: 5.000 m. 13.20 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Obfhr. Erhard Nolting: 5 Stab IV./JG 3 B-24 HSS £ FC-EC: 5.000 m. [area Salzwedel-Klötz] 13.20 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ltn. Hans Schrangl: 24 Stab I./JG 11 B-17 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FT-FS: 6.000 m. [S.W. Verden] 13.25 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Gefr. Schwesinger: 7 2./JG 11 B-17 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FT: 5.800 m. [Nienburg] 13.25 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Oblt. Hans-Heinrich Koenig: 24 3./JG 11 B-24 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FS-FT Raum Nienburg: 5.000 m. 13.25 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Ofw. Jantzen: 1 2./JG 11 B-24 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FT: 5.800 m. [area Nienburg] 13.25 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. -
29.04.44 Ofw. Gahr: 1 Stab/JG 11 B-17 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FT-FS S.W.Verden: 7.000 m. 13.26 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Pfeffer: 3 Stab/JG 11 B-24 HSS £ 05 Ost S/FT-FS S.W.Verden: 6.000 m. 13.26 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Walter Dobrath: 1 1./JG 1 B-24 HSS £ 05 Ost S/ER Raum Vechta: 5.500 m. 13.35 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
29.04.44 Uffz. Willi Unger: 8 11./JG 3 B-17 HSS £ - - Reference: JG 3 List f. 356
26 HSS (Bombers Crippled) (Some of these were later shot down inluding 5 ‘Final Destruction’ of Cripples by Fighters -30 Bombers returned home Damaged)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 20th January 2007, 13:11
Boandlgramer Boandlgramer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Freistaat Bayern
Posts: 149
Boandlgramer is on a distinguished road
Re: Most One Sided Luftwaffe Victory over the 8th Air Force

This is what i found:

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 327: 679 bombers and 814
fighters are dispatched to bomb Berlin, concentrating on railway facilities;
they claim 95-33-48 Luftwaffe aircraft; 63 bombers and 13 fighters are lost:
1. 210 of 228 B-17s bomb Berlin; 10 B-17s are lost and 150 damaged; 1
airman is KIA, 7 WIA and 100 MIA.
2. 218 B-17s are dispatched to Berlin; 158 hit the primary, 24 hit
Magdeburg, 10 hit Brandenburg and 4 hit targets of opportunity; 28 B-17s are
lost and 161 damaged; 4 airmen are KIA, 20 WIA and 260 MIA.
3. 212 of 233 B-24s bomb Berlin; 25 B-24s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair
and 121 damaged; 13 airmen are KIA, 11 WIA and 246 MIA.
Escort is provided by 117 P-38s, 463 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and
234 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; 3 P-38s and 10 P-51s are lost; 1 P-47
is damaged beyond repair; 7 P-38s, 16 P-47s and 7 P-51s are damaged; 1 pilot
is WIA and 12 MIA.
Mission 328: 4 of 4 B-17s drop 1.06 million leaflets on 21 towns in
Northern France and The Netherlands without loss.
14 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER missions without loss.

TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 217 B-26s dispatched to bomb
marshalling yards in France abort the mission because of heavy cloud cover
over the target area.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 20th January 2007, 13:37
sveahk sveahk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 144
sveahk
Re: Most One Sided Luftwaffe Victory over the 8th Air Force

According to "Making for Sweden..." by Widfeldt/Wegmann, one B-24H (41-28718, BO, MACR 4451) landed at Rinkaby in Sweden, after being attacked at 1104 hours in the vicinity of Celie by a FW 190. A B-17G (42-31241, Spirit of Wanett, MACR 4163) and a B-24H (41-29479, Gypsy Queen, MACR 4488 ) ended up in Denmark. Both probably hit by Flak.

Cheers

Hans
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 20th January 2007, 18:56
drgondog's Avatar
drgondog drgondog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 892
drgondog is on a distinguished road
Re: Most One Sided Luftwaffe Victory over the 8th Air Force

I'm not sure I see a 51 lost in the list, that was lost at Rathenow. Capt Thomas Neal was in pursuit of 2 Fw190s diving through cloud cover. His wingman Fritts pulled up and was only 200 feet from the ground when he recovered.

Neal crashed nearby to an Fw190 which presumably was one he was chasing... Neal buried at Rathenow.

I have him as "lost in aerial combat' in my own records

Regards,

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 22nd January 2007, 06:07
Klaus Schiffler Klaus Schiffler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 37
Klaus Schiffler
Re: Most One Sided Luftwaffe Victory over the 8th Air Force

Roger Freeman in his book, Mighty Eighth War Diary, states that Category E covers crashes in the UK or friendly territory as well as aircraft that managed to return but were considered to be beyond economical repair. The category of Missing in Action include aircraft which were downed over enemy territory or at sea. Thus, any 8th AF aircraft which was shot down by German intruders would be included in Category E as well as those two B-24s mentioned above.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 18th August 2010, 19:46
drgondog's Avatar
drgondog drgondog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 892
drgondog is on a distinguished road
Re: Most One Sided Luftwaffe Victory over the 8th Air Force

Jan - the Macr 4547 has references "30 miles west of Berlin" and 30 miles sw of Berlin (Fritts Witness report). The 354 FS history mentions 'near Rathenow'.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 18th August 2010, 23:55
Jan Bobek's Avatar
Jan Bobek Jan Bobek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Planquadrat 14 Ost N/QJ
Posts: 218
Jan Bobek
Re: Most One Sided Luftwaffe Victory over the 8th Air Force

I see, I am aware of this one. I have another report indicating where was his wreck found, a place about 100 miles west of Rathenow. Let me contact you off-board.

Best regards
__________________
Jan Bobek
http://www.czechflyingrabbit.blogspot.cz/

Futo fukutsu (never give up)
Saburo Sakai
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NEW BOOK - LUFTWAFFE & THE WAR AT SEA DavidIsby Books and Magazines 27 29th June 2012 01:15
What was an ATF in 8th Air Force in 1944? Larry Allied and Soviet Air Forces 5 5th May 2007 18:31
Fighter Units & Pilots of the 8th Air Force cz_raf Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 6th November 2006 12:30
VVS divisions Mike35nj Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 7th August 2006 14:27
8th Air Force Formations and PFF Pathfinder Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 31st January 2006 18:03


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net